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[Mictlantecuhtli]

The post was simply trying to persuade Toady that a full polish pass is needed now, before DF really breaks apart completely. And for a bunch of people it's already past that point, most likely.

Ok. Since you're a programmer you can easily create a DF-lite with the features you know are necessary. This topic isn't needed further. Thanks for the input.

[palu]

Hold on a minute.

*Gets popcorn*

Carry on.

[DG]

The stone colours match their colours in real life. That's why most of them in the game are grey. One of the times I donated to Toady he sent me a piece of microline with a note saying (paraphrasing now) "It really is that colour!"

You can ask toady for rocks? I know what I'm going to ask for.

The stone colours match their colours in real life. That's why most of them in the game are grey. One of the times I donated to Toady he sent me a piece of microline with a note saying (paraphrasing now) "It really is that colour!"

You can ask toady for rocks? I know what I'm going to ask for.

Awe man! I would love to have a piece of microcline from Toady. I hope he's been stocking up on microcline!

I didn't actually ask him for anything, I just donated. Wait, that's a lie because I requested a crayon drawing. He was kind enough to send me the small piece of microline and a couple of DF badges he had left over from a DF meet-up he went to as well (I don't think he had any more after that, but it's been a while). I'll wear my badges with pride if there's ever a meet-up over here.

Toady is very open to requests from people, though, like when he coded in the marriage request to pop up during play for a specific person.

[Abalieno]

To insist on the core of this thread and to avoid derails, see this topic: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=140188.0

Beside the "tone", I think we can agree that it has some legitimate complaints. The answer to those complaints is: these new systems are full of interesting potential, so we have to be patient while they get into shape.

Agreed?

What I criticize, again, is that Toady will very likely jump on some bigger system LONG BEFORE these new systems are fixed up and working reliably. This is what happened in the last few years, and didn't when DF was in its initial stages. And this is why this thread exists. It's observation about what went on in recent years.

Imho, such a project isn't going to work long term if Toady keeps pushing for big, incomplete features without caring for everything he left behind. It's like a big MMORPG where all the work goes on the next expansion pack when the basic game is in a bad shape.

Once we agree at least on the topic of the discussion then the thread itself can quiet down or whatever.

[Footkerchief]

HENCE: please take a break from adding SIGNIFICANT FEATURES, and go back, for an extended period, to POLISH THINGS UP.

Because, imho, DF is now at a point where it's rather badly broken and inconsistent. Not just because of the latest release, but because the MAJORITY of the systems that needed love have been neglected along the years, to add major features.

So, please stop for a while adding major features so that the game can be reorganized into something that *makes sense*, instead of just a mess that is more and more broken as time passes and only becomes just a wacky experiment of computer art.

Can we agree on this?

I think that's understandable.  The sheer number of unresolved reports on the bug tracker is daunting, and yeah, many of the game's systems are a shambles.  Toady might be persuaded to spend a little longer on post-release bug-fixing, but eventually he's going to need to focus on new features, to sustain the community's interest and his own.   The game will have a crapton of bugs for... at least another decade, and maybe forever.  I think that's unavoidable when you have a highly ambitious concept and a single developer.

[Abalieno]

I think that's understandable.  The sheer number of unresolved reports on the bug tracker is daunting, and yeah, many of the game's systems are a shambles.  You may be able to persuade Toady to spend a little longer on post-release bug-fixing, but eventually he's going to need to focus on new features, to sustain the community's interest and his own.

This is what I vehemently argue against.

I don't know Toady, but the community would react much, much more strongly about the little things that make huge differences. And that's why we discussed the UI as an example of this.

More big, incomplete features seem to only build big hype and then big disappointments. I'm just saying that NOW we are at a point where I don't think Toady can actually avoid taking care of what he left behind.

Even the guy who was ranting about the raws is just an example of work that potentially has a much bigger impact, for the time it takes to do it.

[Stalker]

Hold on a minute.

*Gets popcorn*

Carry on.

*sits next* ...can I have some popcorn?

[palu]

Hold on a minute.

*Gets popcorn*

Carry on.

*sits next* ...can I have some popcorn?

*Munch munch*
Sure.

[DG]

Imho, such a project isn't going to work long term if Toady keeps pushing for big, incomplete features without caring for everything he left behind.

How much longer does the current dev style need to continue before you accept that it's a viable long term strategy?

[SmileyMan]

I don't know Toady, but the community would react much, much more strongly about the little things that make huge differences. And that's why we discussed the UI as an example of this.

Has this thread not yet convinced you that 'Abalieno's opinion' and 'the community's likely reaction' are not necessarily the same thing?

The DF community is an awfully broad church. Roguelike players, retro gamers, sim enthusiasts, fantasy gamers, geologists, modders, nerds, comedians, programmers, engineers, storytellers and the whole rainbow of the autistic spectrum.

Anything that Toady works on is likely to please some parts and be irrelevant or annoying to others. If you accept that premise, then you should follow the logical conclusion that the most effective progress would be made my working on the parts that keep him happy and motivated. Which is exactly the situation we find ourselves in.

[GavJ]

Anything that Toady works on is likely to please some parts and be irrelevant or annoying to others. If you accept that premise, then you should follow the logical conclusion that the most effective progress would be made my working on the parts that keep him happy and motivated. Which is exactly the situation we find ourselves in.

(*cough* Actually, that premise can also support the alternative logical conclusion that "empowering modders" might be most productive insofar as it can lead to multiple versions of the game at any given point that please everybody overall, while being annoying to nobody [because you can choose the ones that don't annoy you], which is otherwise impossible from Toady alone.)

*ducks rotten fruit flying randomly around the room and runs back to the safety of ignoring 90% of the comments in the thread again*

[mnjiman]

If he wishes to ignore the current back up on bugs and optimizations and the possible large amount of clogged code, that is up to him to decide upon! However, the longer he leaves things as is the harder and harder its going to be further down the line to fix future bugs and optimizations.

Anyways, I am done with this thread. It was fun while it lasted

[GavJ]

pfft, no hopefully (!!!) everybody in the thread should agree that bugs come before anything else!

That would be pretty pants-on-head crazy to suggest that existing major bugs shouldn't come first... no matter what else later 

[Skuggen]

If he wishes to ignore the current back up on bugs and optimizations and the possible large amount of clogged code, that is up to him to decide upon! However, the longer he leaves things as is the harder and harder its going to be further down the line to fix future bugs and optimizations.

Anyways, I am done with this thread. It was fun while it lasted

No, _I_ shall have the last word! *runs away before anyone has time to argue*
Passive-aggression and stating you won't be paying attention to counter arguments is always the best way to win people over.

I guess it's a matter of what people consider to be major bugs.

[Archereon]

If he wishes to ignore the current back up on bugs and optimizations and the possible large amount of clogged code, that is up to him to decide upon! However, the longer he leaves things as is the harder and harder its going to be further down the line to fix future bugs and optimizations.

Anyways, I am done with this thread. It was fun while it lasted

Dude, optimization is saved until near the very end of development, that's practically software design 101; optimizing prematurely makes it significantly harder to make further changes without screwing things up. In fact, according to the standard software release model, we're still in alpha, and bugs should only be fixed as necessary. This would be followed by a beta consisting of a feature freeze, bug-fixing, and optimization.

Granted, Dwarf Fortress's development is not something I'd call in any way standard, but ultimately, development is intended to have an endpoint.

Now, perhaps Toady should opt to go into beta now rather than later, focus on tightening up the existing system, optimize code that is not expected to change further, and make the interface more user friendly, then begin working towards Dwarf Fortress 2.0 with another wave of features; that's the general idea of what the OP is arguing, and while I don't necessarily agree with him or her, DF could use some polish.