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[Footkerchief]

Pressure from people asking for stuff that you never promised.
1) This is always going to be the case for a publicly available game. This thread itself is this kind of pressure. Nothing about that would be "new" with a GUI API. The only way to avoid it entirely would be to get a job at Starbucks and use that to fund writing the game in his basement and never talk to any players until he's finished.
2) If you disagree with the requests being made, you can simply ignore this pressure without feeling bad about yourself. And no rational person can really fault you for it. So it is inherently lower (although not zero) stress.

That's not how human interaction works.  Unjustified, uninvited, undeserved pressure is still pressure, especially when your forum boils over with it.

Oh sure, I've seen that quote. I felt the same way about broccoli when I was a kid. You know what? Maybe it's time to man up? He has an extraordinary purpose and a well defined life's mission. Someday the prince must put the toy soldiers away and become king.

In that case, yeah, I get what you mean, although I don't think "man up" is a helpful way to phrase it.  It's a fine line in these threads between a) understanding how and why Toady works, and hoping for future change and b) not understanding.

[thvaz]

cephalo has utilities not only to DF, but to a number of games I also follow. Respect.

Though I do not agree with him in this situation. "Man up" isn't very nice to say.

[arbarbonif]

To clarify, there are two kinds of "pressure"

Pressure to fulfill obligations you have promised.
This is something that an honorable man must relent to as best he can, and is IMO a much more potent form of stress than the other kind. However, it can be avoided by simply not promising things.

Pressure from people asking for stuff that you never promised.
1) This is always going to be the case for a publicly available game. This thread itself is this kind of pressure. Nothing about that would be "new" with a GUI API. The only way to avoid it entirely would be to get a job at Starbucks and use that to fund writing the game in his basement and never talk to any players until he's finished.
2) If you disagree with the requests being made, you can simply ignore this pressure without feeling bad about yourself. And no rational person can really fault you for it. So it is inherently lower (although not zero) stress.



Making an API and making it clear that you do not intend to help update 3rd party apps after releases, does not create any more of the first kind of pressure, and mostly just shifts the second kind of pressure into a different set of requests than there were before. People stop complaining about lack of GUI and start complaining about how the GUI breaks. All sort of washes out the same. But at the end of the day, you still have a much better gaming experience overall.

You forget the pressure you put on yourself (mainly personal goals and perfectionism).  I suspect Toady is FAR more driven by that.

[ShadowHammer]

It seems like you're conflating "business model" with "size of dev team," but regardless:

First, I don't want to work with other people.

Oh sure, I've seen that quote. I felt the same way about broccoli when I was a kid. You know what? Maybe it's time to man up? He has an extraordinary purpose and a well defined life's mission. Someday the prince must put the toy soldiers away and become king.

Are you serious? Please tell me you're joking.

I know exactly what cephalo is talking about, and I've had exactly the same experience. As a kid, I hated working with broccoli; everything I tried to build with it just collapsed. It has poor tensile strength, terrible shear strength, and don't even get me started on compression, let alone hardness.

[GavJ]

You forget the pressure you put on yourself (mainly personal goals and perfectionism).  I suspect Toady is FAR more driven by that.

True. But a GUI thing doesn't get in the way of that.

If what he himself predicts is true, and 3rd party GUIs are better than what he can make, then his game is as perfect as it can be. And even if so, he can still go do his own GUI if he just simply wants a game he can call entirely his own, all at the same time.
If he can do better, then he can easily do so as just another GUI plugin, and people can easily switch over and will naturally use his, if it's better. So again, the game is just as perfect as it can be.

UNLIKE a situation where, for instance, you let some other person come in and write your world gen code and then maybe you don't understand it or something and yet game features pile up that depend on it (thus locking yourself out of being able to make the whole game yourself), this is different: nothing about it would prevent him from fulfilling whatever personal goals he had in mind, including a GUI if he wants. Because no internal code needs to depend or be aware of any GUI code.

[mnjiman]

Seems like there isn't much to say on this topic anymore honestly. There are people that want ToadyOne to work the way they wish him to do and there are other people that are fine with how he is currently doing things. The purpose of this thread at this point is an attempt by community members to direct ToadyOne in a certain direction they feel is best. While others have find offense to that and have gone about defending the current programming model.

Either way imho, I am just happy to see the community continue to be so dedicated to Dwarf Fortress, no matter the stance. Of course I am simply assisting with stroking our own ego's with this type of post, however I just wish that people do continue to see the bigger picture. No matter our thoughts, this is ToadyOnes baby. One way may be better than another, but I hope people respect what ever he does and/or continues to do.

[GavJ]

Seems like there isn't much to say on this topic anymore honestly.

probably true.

And yes, any DF is a good DF, despite some paths seeming personally better than others.

[cephalo]

cephalo has utilities not only to DF, but to a number of games I also follow. Respect.

Though I do not agree with him in this situation. "Man up" isn't very nice to say.

Please excuse my touch of rudeness. You know what though, it kinda ticks me off that there are an increasing number of DF inspired projects who's creators are millionaires. Put that keyboard down and get a laser pointer. Stick it in people's faces! You! Fix bugs! You! User Interface! You! You're fired! Bye, I'm going on vacation!

It's time to direct!

[sal880612m]

No matter our thoughts, this is ToadyOnes baby. One way may be better then another, but I hope people respect what ever he does and/or continues to do.

My biggest problem with this thread and threads like these are that they almost always come across as not respecting what he wants to do, which is something he has already stated, in favour of what they want him to do. It's made even worse because the OP has been around long enough to know this.

I don't know if there is nothing else to say, I mean Shadowhammer broccoli comments were humorous enough to justify a derail.

[miauw62]

It seems like you're conflating "business model" with "size of dev team," but regardless:

First, I don't want to work with other people.

Oh sure, I've seen that quote. I felt the same way about broccoli when I was a kid. You know what? Maybe it's time to man up? He has an extraordinary purpose and a well defined life's mission. Someday the prince must put the toy soldiers away and become king.

Asking Toady to work togheter with other people on DF is like asking Tolkien to let other people help him write The Silmarillion.

[GavJ]

^
Toady also could have been a millionaire probably by getting a high paying mathematics-requiring industry job, too. Money seems not the point.

As for staff members for DF: Seems like a terrible idea if they're ones that require salaries, as it would make the long, carefully constructed core framework impossible while still making paychecks. Volunteers? Maybe. Seems like a whole different thread, though.

what he wants to do, which is something he has already stated

I don't think it's clear. If it were, I wouldn't be debating at all.
He has expressed a desire not to work with people, but also recognition of the potential benefits of doing so in a limited capacity.
He has expressed a desire to make an epic simulator, but also a game.
He has expressed a desire to maintain control of everything, but also acknowledged that 3rd parties might do a lot better than him on some peripherals.
He seems on the fence about a lot of stuff. As I would be.

[4maskwolf]

cephalo has utilities not only to DF, but to a number of games I also follow. Respect.

Though I do not agree with him in this situation. "Man up" isn't very nice to say.

You know what though, it kinda ticks me off that there are an increasing number of DF inspired projects who's creators are millionaires.

You know what bothers me, along similar lines?

All of the games that are being built by companies that go out of their way to be, as they put it, "dwarf fortress, but better".

I actually think that, as cool as graphics are (which is one of the things that these games promise), the ASCII graphics have a certain charm to them.  I know that isn't true for everyone, but I like the ASCII graphics, and I'm not going to leave DF just because of the lack of "real" graphics.

Also, to the OP, Toady has his vision for the game and how he wants to do it, so please respect that and let the subject drop.

[Oblique]

Tolkien [...] The Silmarillion.

Wait, are you saying Toady is going to die, and DF will be finished and published by his son?

Simile - sometimes they take us to unexpected places 

[Abalieno]

There should only be three types of chairs in The Sims: one shitty but cheap chair, one mediocre chair and one decadent chair. Anything else is just detracting from gameplay.

Oh, that furthers MY point.

I've always hated that in The Sims what you wear is completely ignored and makes no difference mechanically. You could go around in underwear but no one would show any kind of reaction. An example of variation that is merely cosmetic when you instead expect actual depth.

And then I do think chairs can have different stats on them? I don't know how much granularity, but I guess it's variation that DF doesn't have.

[cephalo]

And then I do think chairs can have different stats on them? I don't know how much granularity, but I guess it's variation that DF doesn't have.

Well, an adamantine chair can exist inside magma. So that's kinda different. I think in my Walledwar fort (in sig) has such an example.