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[TheCoolSideofthePIllow]

I disagree.

Same here.

The goal is, and was, to create a fantasy world simulator, and it's coming along rather nicely, albeit slowly.

I've had more fun with this update in *two days* than I have had, at least with Adventure Mode, in the past 2 years.

[Elaxter]

I disagree.

Same here.

The goal is, and was, to create a fantasy world simulator, and it's coming along rather nicely, albeit slowly.

I've had more fun with this update in *two days* than I have had, at least with Adventure Mode, in the past 2 years.

This exactly. Previously, adventure mode was Urist McFarmer telling you to kill the insanely trained bandit lord that lives across the world. Report back if you win, die if you don't. Get more fame, kill bigger stuff.

Now it's Urist McFarmer is getting hustled by the goons, who can be dispatched. Events transpire and all the sudden you're on a quest to find the correct camp where the bandit lord is: spending hours gathering information from different people who don't know (and shouldn't know, mind you) where the bandit lord is. Then it hits you: speak to the lord of the land and he will know all! It works, and you're slaying the crap out of some kobolds who slew the bandit lord -- or something like that.

Or you could have dispatched the goons, spit on the farmer, and steal his gold; you escape by climbing up the wall and jumping from tree-to-tree like some sort of monkey man.

Fortress Mode shouldn't change too much: it seems good as it is (from what I've played) Bug fixes =/= changes, though. The in-game history progression seems like the last hit on the nail for Dwarf Fortress Mode in the foreseeable future (for me, at least) (correct me if I'm completely and utterly wrong; I will understand)

[RealFear]

This exactly. Previously, adventure mode was Urist McFarmer telling you to kill the insanely trained bandit lord that lives across the world. Report back if you win, die if you don't. Get more fame, kill bigger stuff.

Now it's Urist McFarmer is getting hustled by the goons, who can be dispatched. Events transpire and all the sudden you're on a quest to find the correct camp where the bandit lord is: spending hours gathering information from different people who don't know (and shouldn't know, mind you) where the bandit lord is. Then it hits you: speak to the lord of the land and he will know all! It works, and you're slaying the crap out of some kobolds who slew the bandit lord -- or something like that.

I really do miss that quest log though.
Wish it was still there, but only showed the info you've actually been given.
I also miss that it seems as if I can no longer get a great reputation and be loved by everyone because of there being no "real" quests.

[Abalieno]

There are many great mods, and I play them all the time. However, I don't want the major mods in the game. Some ideas, perhaps, and minor features, but not the mods themselves. I'd prefer the vanilla game to remain "pure". Most third-party content should be optional, if included at all. Of course some things, like the DFHack fixes, binary patches, stonesense overlay, and raw fixes, could be included, and some of them are. But Toady doesn't like including other peoples code, and it's his game. I can always download mods and utilities if i want to.

I'll take advantage of this to explain that in the first post I never said mods should be integrated. Personally, I use a standard ASCII set, 9x9, and no other mod beside my own colors. So go figure.

I brought mods up because there's the systemic stuff like Dwarf Therapist or some hacks that are now MANDATORY to play the game and have some enjoyment.

That's stuff we need better integration for. Making ALL text truetype and graphic just graphic without ugly cross overs is something that is way overdue. As is extending ALL text screens to use all the space, instead f just an arbitrary number of them. Toady started doing all that, then he stopped. I'm simply asking he goes back to this stuff even if it's not the most pleasant kind of game programming that you enjoy doing.

Either he's willingly to do that, or here's the part where the open source would greatly improve things and why I mentioned it. That's the stuff that would get improved very quickly.

It's about time this has the priority and that Toady, with or without help, spends time to improve the damn CLIENT. Before he goes back messing/rewriting the game logic once again.

I love DF, and would love it if it had better UI, better modding support, performance improvements, multithreading, more depth, a graphics API, pretty much everything on the suggestions forum. But it's far and away the best game I've ever played, and it would be ungrateful of me to complain. I like it just as it is, and it can only get better from here.

There's no complaining here. There's constructive criticism about the stuff I think Toady did wrong.

If Toady understand my motivations then he'll do things differently for a while as I suggested. If he disagrees he'll go his own way as usual and this feedback I've given will remain just that, feedback.

[Gnomeknows]

Well, ok then.  Read this entire thread, and kinda regretting it now.  I did skip over any post that ONLY "bashed" the op though, because it added nothing to the argument, and is typical internet BS you find on facebook or youtube from kids.

It was almost six pages of people saying "I disagree".  Quite a few didn't even give a reason, other than Toady is apparently their god and all that jazz.  A few made some good points, though most was rehashed stuff from interviews and posts from Toady, but apparently they needed to be read again.  Most that agreed with part of the OP did so on the same point: the UI needs help, which as some have pointed out, Toady is already aware of is planning to address.

My advice would be to diversify your gaming, if you come to feel the need to post something like this, you might be spending too much time on one game.  And if any game warrants a break now and then, it's one with a long production cycle between versions, that and minecraft, which is in "too many versions" Hell right now.  Which brings me to my last point(opinion): a balance is needed with game release times, being moddable can make wiggle room though if you miss a release date.  K that's all.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

The thing is, this is the ⁿth time we've seen this topic around here. Flippancy is to be expected.

[Putnam]

now MANDATORY to play the game and have some enjoyment.

no

EDIT: The uncapitalized word was a bit too... yeah, flippant was used above me, that's a good word! Yeah, what you just said is empirically wrong, some "Black Swan" shit.

1. Are hacks mandatory to enjoy the game?
2. At least one person enjoys the game without them.
3. They are not mandatory to enjoy the game.

[Eagleon]

There's no complaining here. There's constructive criticism about the stuff I think Toady did wrong.

If Toady understand my motivations then he'll do things differently for a while as I suggested. If he disagrees he'll go his own way as usual and this feedback I've given will remain just that, feedback.

Your tone, even side by side with the very next paragraph you use in this very post, says otherwise. To be clear, I don't disagree with some of what you're saying. But your opening statement waving your member number badge around, saying how special of a fan you are, how much you've done for the community, etc. doesn't really give your arguments weight. To be blunt, you just sound self-entitled.

Nothing about blind fanboy love here - there's things in DF that I wish were different, places I wish he'd focus on sooner like adventure-mode sites, digging, crafting, and a more seamless transition between fort-mode and adventure, but then there are different games for me to play. It's always been clear that Toady intends to pursue the 'chimera' you describe. You've been around long enough to know that, and that these arguments have been heard dozens of times, that there's no easy answer or balance between making the world less bland and more enjoyable to actually make (Toady obviously likes agates and macaques), and keeping code lean and reusable, that Toady is listening as best he can without compromising his development pattern (because it's much, much better to stick with one pattern than be yanked around in two-hundred other directions by your fans, even if that pattern is flawed), so really, what is the purpose of this thread other than to vent?

[Abalieno]

1. Are hacks mandatory to enjoy the game?
2. At least one person enjoys the game without them.
3. They are not mandatory to enjoy the game.

I wouldn't understand how someone could enjoy the game MORE by playing without Dwarf Therapist.

It's not about doing different things, it's about doing the exact same stuff in a fraction of the time merely because you don't have to wade through hundreds of screens.

That's the quality of life stuff I'm speaking about. It's the stuff that is functionally identical but that makes the experience much better.

There's a reason I wrote this post NOW. And it is because it's more than two years that DF was in that deep rewrite. So we got a lot of that, and I'm hopeful that, not just for the next two months, but for much longer, we go back at frequent updates and features that go in as soon they are finished.

There's absolutely no reason, for example, why you need to wait two years for the "new trees". Imho, this choice of keep development "secret" without releasing it to the public only slow things down immensely, and doesn't ultimately lead to a better game.

[ShadowHammer]

1. Are hacks mandatory to enjoy the game?
2. At least one person enjoys the game without them.
3. They are not mandatory to enjoy the game.

I wouldn't understand how someone could enjoy the game MORE by playing without Dwarf Therapist.

I do. I used Therapist for one fortress, but I eventually realized that I preferred not to. I choose to use the game's interface over Therapist's, because I like it better.

[Abalieno]

I also want to stress that I made this post because the idea I got from Toady was:
"Yes, we all know the major new release is bugged. So for the next couple of weeks I'll work on the big offenders, then see you in three years while I work on facial hair physics and hormone distribution."

So I was asking that he goes back to all three things: bug fixing, UI/client improvements, new features, but released as they are developed.

THERE WAS a time when he STARTED working on the stuff that lead to SDL, large client window, truetype and all that. So I was asking he goes back to continue that work he left behind.

AND that he develops the game the way he wants, but without delaying features for years, and more like in 2006 when you saw features go in as they were coded (and they actually worked far more reliably than they do now, believe me).

[Abalieno]

I do. I used Therapist for one fortress, but I eventually realized that I preferred not to. I choose to use the game's interface over Therapist's, because I like it better.

Yes, because "I like it better" is very good and persuasive motivation.

[Scripten]

I do. I used Therapist for one fortress, but I eventually realized that I preferred not to. I choose to use the game's interface over Therapist's, because I like it better.

Yes, because "I like it better" is very good and persuasive motivation.

Kind of the only one you need to make a decision that only affects yourself, no?

[Putnam]

I do. I used Therapist for one fortress, but I eventually realized that I preferred not to. I choose to use the game's interface over Therapist's, because I like it better.

Yes, because "I like it better" is very good and persuasive motivation.

You serious? You're giving ShadowHammer shit for that claim when your argument is

there's the systemic stuff like Dwarf Therapist or some hacks that are now MANDATORY to play the game and have some enjoyment.

Which is a far more extraordinary claim?

[SmileyMan]

I wouldn't understand how someone could enjoy the game MORE by playing without Dwarf Therapist.

Think of it as a sort of "How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Cheesemakers" philosophy.

If you're after a super-efficient fortress with lots of incredibly skilled dwarves in little enclaves producing masterwork items, then you definitely need DT. Or you can relax a bit, and if a job's not getting done, grab a nearby idle dwarf and turn that labour on.

The thing about mods (and this is the number one reason to not incorporate them into the core game) is that no matter how 'open source' they are, they tend to have a single lead programmer, and that single person tends to be a college student, and they tend to get jobs and families and suddenly find they have no time, or they prefer KSP or whatever. The useful lifetime of the average mod is therefore 3-4 years at best. DF has a scope and timespan far, far beyond that (and unique among the games development industry)