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[TheDorf]

So that '3' number in prepare:recover translates into 1 dwarf mode tick?

No, changing two handed weapons like the maul to have twice the time, by changing 3:3 to 6:6, results in attacks still taking 1 tick to process in fort time.

I swear I remember reading somewhere about the exact measurements of fort time in comparison to adventure time (heh). Can't remember the specifics but I think it was brought up during a discussion about weaponizing werebeasts and lunar cycles in fort mode.

How much a tick in time is worth against the yearly dwarven calendar depends on the game mode, as time in fortress mode is much more heavily accelerated than it is in adventurer mode. Fortress mode counts 1200 ticks per day and 403200 per year, while adventurer mode counts 86400 ticks to a day and therefore 29030400 ticks per year. According to these rates, each tick is equivalent to a real-world second in adventurer mode, but 1.2 minutes in fortress mode, making adventurers 72 times faster than your dwarves tick-for-tick. This is intended behavior, as the pacing in fortress mode is much, much faster than when adventuring.

So, if the tag is based around adventurer time, a typical weapon like a warhammer would take 3 seconds irl to attack and recover, and in adventure mode it'd take 3 ticks each, while in fort mode all attacks would be completed in a tick. Either way, what matters is probably which weapon is faster. If an attacker has a sword that takes 3 units of time to attack and 3 to recover, while the defender has a huge axe that takes 6 units to attack and recover, the sword has more potential to inflict damage or interrupt the opponent's attack.

This is all hypothetical, since I haven't tested this extensively outside of "fort mode all weapons attack in one tick."

So this means weapon mods balanced for adventure mode will make slower weapons extremely overpowered in fortress mode, assuming they are given better velocity multipliers etc. to compensate for the lack of speed? Crap 

[Spehss _]

No, slow weapons should still be slower than quicker weapons. At the moment in vanilla, all weapons are the same speed except whips, which are 33% slower.

So, like, one tick in the fortress passes. One fort tick is 72 adventure ticks, or basically 72 seconds. Your huge maul wielded by your huge hammerdwarf that's been modded takes six seconds to attack and six to recover. That's twelve seconds for a full attack. Your hammerdwarf could attack 6 times. The goblin he's fighting though, that has a short sword that takes 3 seconds to attack and 3 to recover, can get twice as many attacks in, and because the goblin's attacks take less time to perform and recover from, he's less open and could potentially parry or block the hammerdwarf's attacks more.

Hypothetically. The whole combat system still needs lots of testing to figure out how it works.

[scamtank]

Okay, I thought all that was bull honkey so I got empirical.

Dwarf punching and kicking and biting: recovery and preparation times all increased to 100x normal. Assuming that the flow of time in the Arena runs according whether you're observing or possessing a creature (which I believe to be true from past experience), the fistfights in the overall "fort mode" view would be impossibly slow instead of completely normal.

And so they are. At 150fps, with two healthy and willingly murderous dwarves at each others' throats, the attacks are made several seconds apart. Most attack attempts end up with a successful dodge despite the lack of skill, since the wind-up takes so much time that in possess-mode you can literally run circles around your opponent before the swing actually happens.

Unless the Arena is a horrible time anomaly where no rules apply, I'd say the weapon recovery times do make a difference even in Fortress mode.

e: I'm having the awful feeling that I misunderstood the entire argument

[Dirst]

So that '3' number in prepare:recover translates into 1 dwarf mode tick?

No, changing two handed weapons like the maul to have twice the time, by changing 3:3 to 6:6, results in attacks still taking 1 tick to process in fort time.

I swear I remember reading somewhere about the exact measurements of fort time in comparison to adventure time (heh). Can't remember the specifics but I think it was brought up during a discussion about weaponizing werebeasts and lunar cycles in fort mode.

How much a tick in time is worth against the yearly dwarven calendar depends on the game mode, as time in fortress mode is much more heavily accelerated than it is in adventurer mode. Fortress mode counts 1200 ticks per day and 403200 per year, while adventurer mode counts 86400 ticks to a day and therefore 29030400 ticks per year. According to these rates, each tick is equivalent to a real-world second in adventurer mode, but 1.2 minutes in fortress mode, making adventurers 72 times faster than your dwarves tick-for-tick. This is intended behavior, as the pacing in fortress mode is much, much faster than when adventuring.

So, if the tag is based around adventurer time, a typical weapon like a warhammer would take 3 seconds irl to attack and recover, and in adventure mode it'd take 3 ticks each, while in fort mode all attacks would be completed in a tick. Either way, what matters is probably which weapon is faster. If an attacker has a sword that takes 3 units of time to attack and 3 to recover, while the defender has a huge axe that takes 6 units to attack and recover, the sword has more potential to inflict damage or interrupt the opponent's attack.

This is all hypothetical, since I haven't tested this extensively outside of "fort mode all weapons attack in one tick."

So this means weapon mods balanced for adventure mode will make slower weapons extremely overpowered in fortress mode, assuming they are given better velocity multipliers etc. to compensate for the lack of speed? Crap 

Not if the faster weapon can get its strike in first, potentially disrupting the slower heavier attack.  Then a thief with a 2:2 dirk could make mincemeat of a hammerdwarf before he could land a single blow.

I'm sure that these numbers are adjusted under the hood for creature stats, and hopefully there is some weighted randomness to which attack lands first.  But you are correct that if the attacks are considered simultaneous (both rounded up to 1 fort tick) then the slower ones will be overpowered in fort mode.

[Nero1024]

Removed the wings but kept the [FLIER] and flying gaits related tokens and I still got the flight speed related controls (even while still on the ground) in the sneak menu. The same thing also happens with the standard bird people (tested w/ raven man and eagle man) as well. I'm assuming this is a bug.

It is not a bug. Note that most birds have 1kph gaits for walking; they're intended to be flying all the time or crippled in speed when their wings are gone.

I would have expected the creature to walk while on the ground. It also seems a bit weird for the creature to technically be 'flying' even though the creature is firmly on the ground and can jump (and take damage from long drops after a jump).

[Spehss _]

At 150fps, with two healthy and willingly murderous dwarves at each others' throats, the attacks are made several seconds apart.

So, by seconds, are you counting by ticks or actual in real life seconds or what?

When I was giving that whole example thing I was basing a "second" in dwarf fortress world around a tick in adventure mode. One adventure mode tick is 1/72 of a fort mode tick. In my example I was just describing the time span of adventure mode ticks as "seconds" because it's an easier unit to refer to than constantly saying "adventure mode ticks".

I was considering weapon recovery times too in my example. Yeah, they probably have an effect.

We could use fort mode ticks as the standard measurement by using multiples of 72 in the weapon speed tag...assuming that the numbers in the weapon speed tag are adventure mode ticks. Based off your experiments it would probably break adventure mode since all attacks are so slow you can walk away from the punch.

[TheDorf]

Alright, I made two creatures and set them up against eachother in the arena. They are identical to eachother except for their names and the following:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: (creature one) [Select]

[ATTACK:KICK:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:STANCE]
[ATTACK_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE]
[ATTACK_VERB:kick:kicks]
[ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:30:3]
[ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
[ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]
[ATTACK_FLAG_BAD_MULTIATTACK]

Code: (creature two) [Select]

[ATTACK:KICK:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:STANCE]
[ATTACK_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE]
[ATTACK_VERB:kick:kicks]
[ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:1:1]
[ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
[ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]
[ATTACK_FLAG_BAD_MULTIATTACK]

The result:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Assuming that arena mode uses the same time units as dwarf mode, it seems you guys are right that attack speeds will affect fort mode aswell.

[Spehss _]

The result:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Your result image was broken. fixed it.

So the faster creature got more attack opportunities than the slower creature? Cool. This gives weapon balancing so much more potential.

[TheDorf]

The result:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Your result image was broken. fixed it.

So the faster creature got more attack opportunities than the slower creature? Cool. This gives weapon balancing so much more potential.

It works for me

Anyways, it's just an image of creature two getting in a full page of attacks without creature one attacking even once.

And yeah, I agree. This can be used for some simple but really interesting modding.

[Sorcerer]

confirmed that the full list from the dev log all set to 100:100:100 gives no error report but utterly self-conflicted ponies.

the list toady posted is thus the full list of personality traits.

Code: [Select]

LOVE_PROPENSITY
HATE_PROPENSITY
ENVY_PROPENSITY
CHEER_PROPENSITY
DEPRESSION_PROPENSITY
ANGER_PROPENSITY
ANXIETY_PROPENSITY
LUST_PROPENSITY
STRESS_VULNERABILITY
GREED
IMMODERATION
VIOLENT
PERSEVERENCE
WASTEFULNESS
DISCORD
FRIENDLINESS
POLITENESS
DISDAIN_ADVICE
BRAVERY
CONFIDENCE
VANITY
AMBITION
GRATITUDE
IMMODESTY
HUMOR
VENGEFUL
PRIDE
CRUELTY
SINGLEMINDED
HOPEFUL
CURIOUS
BASHFUL
PRIVACY
PERFECTIONIST
CLOSEMINDED
TOLERANT
EMOTIONALLY_OBSESSIVE
SWAYED_BY_EMOTIONS
ALTRUISM
DUTIFULNESS
THOUGHTLESSNESS
ORDERLINESS
TRUST
GREGARIOUSNESS
ASSERTIVENESS
ACTIVITY_LEVEL
EXCITEMENT_SEEKING
IMAGINATION
ABSTRACT_INCLINED
ART_INCLINED

[scamtank]

I can't seem to find a way to screw with the reload times of ranged weapons.

[TheDorf]

I can't seem to find a way to screw with the reload times of ranged weapons.

Sadly, it seems Toady didn't add any tokens for ranged weapons :/ A temporary solution would have been neat, but I guess he'd prefer adding a more or less permanent solution when he feels it's time to update ranged combat.

[Sergarr]

I can't seem to find a way to screw with the reload times of ranged weapons.

Sadly, it seems Toady didn't add any tokens for ranged weapons :/ A temporary solution would have been neat, but I guess he'd prefer adding a more or less permanent solution when he feels it's time to update ranged combat.

Try modifying ammo [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER] token.

[scamtank]

Nope, not that either.

[TheDorf]

Eternally flaming materials, and using them as tissues for creatures - would this be possible? The wiki says that items made of materials with extremely high heat damage points will disappear after 9 months and 16.8 days, does this apply to creatures aswell?

Smelling and odors, has anyone done any research about these? What is the standard value for odor? I want my beasties to be able to smell their way to any adventurers.


Edit: My eternally flaming balrog was easily ripped to pieces by a small, wolf-life creature. What did I do wrong?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Code: (balrog) [Select]

[CREATURE:BALROG]
[DESCRIPTION:A gigantic magic statue made of bronze and bent on mayhem.]
[NAME:balrog:balrog:balrog]
[CASTE_NAME:balrog:balrog:balrog]
[CREATURE_TILE:'C'][COLOR:6:0:0]
[MEGABEAST][DIFFICULTY:15] 11 or higher does not get assigned as adv mode quests
[ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:10000:100000]
[FANCIFUL]
[NOPAIN][EXTRAVISION][NOBREATHE][NOSTUN][NONAUSEA][NOEMOTION]
[NOTHOUGHT][NOEXERT]
[NO_DIZZINESS]
[NO_FEVERS]
[BUILDINGDESTROYER:2]
[LARGE_PREDATOR]
[NO_DRINK][NO_EAT][NO_SLEEP]
[SPHERE:METALS]
[SPHERE:STRENGTH]
[SPHERE:WAR]
[NOT_LIVING]
[CANOPENDOORS]
[NOT_BUTCHERABLE]
[BIOME:ANY_LAND]
[EQUIPS]
[NOFEAR]
[PREFSTRING:height]
[NOBONES]
[ODOR_LEVEL:0] no smell
[SMELL_TRIGGER:10000] cannot smell
[BODY:HUMANOID_NECK:2WINGS:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:HUMANOID_JOINTS:5FINGERS:5TOES]
[NO_THOUGHT_CENTER_FOR_MOVEMENT]
[TISSUE:ROCK_FLAMING]
[TISSUE_NAME:flaming rock:flaming rock]
[TISSUE_MATERIAL:INORGANIC:ROCK_FLAMING]
[MUSCULAR]
[FUNCTIONAL]
[STRUCTURAL]
[RELATIVE_THICKNESS:1]
[CONNECTS]
[TISSUE_SHAPE:LAYER]
[TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:BRONZE]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:20000000]
[BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
[BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
[ATTACK:PUNCH:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:GRASP]
[ATTACK_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE]
[ATTACK_VERB:punch:punches]
[ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
[ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]
[ATTACK:KICK:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:STANCE]
[ATTACK_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE]
[ATTACK_VERB:kick:kicks]
[ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:4:4]
[ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
[ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]
[ATTACK_FLAG_BAD_MULTIATTACK]
[ATTACK:BITE:CHILD_BODYPART_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH]
[ATTACK_SKILL:BITE]
[ATTACK_VERB:bite:bites]
[ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
[ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
[ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]
[ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3]
[ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]
[ATTACK_FLAG_CANLATCH]
[ITEMCORPSE_QUALITY:5]
[DIURNAL]
[HOMEOTHERM:12000]
[LAIR:SIMPLE_BURROW:100]
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_BIPED_GAITS:900:657:438:219:1900:2900] 40 kph
(APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_CLIMBING_GAITS:2990:2257:1525:731:4300:6100) 12 kph
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_SWIMMING_GAITS:2990:2257:1525:731:4300:6100] 12 kph
[APPLY_CREATURE_VARIATION:STANDARD_CRAWLING_GAITS:2990:2257:1525:731:4300:6100] 12 kph
[SWIMS_LEARNED]

Code: (flaming rock) [Select]

[INORGANIC:ROCK_FLAMING]
[USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:METAL_TEMPLATE]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:ALL_SOLID:flaming rock]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:LIQUID:molten flaming rock]
[STATE_NAME_ADJ:GAS:boiling flaming rock]
[DISPLAY_COLOR:6:4:0]
[BUILD_COLOR:6:4:0]
[MATERIAL_VALUE:5]
[SPEC_HEAT:435]
[MELTING_POINT:14140]
[BOILING_POINT:16140]
[IGNITION_POINT:11500]
[MAT_FIXED_TEMP:12000]
[HEATDAM_POINT:60000]
(ITEMS_WEAPON)(ITEMS_WEAPON_RANGED)(ITEMS_AMMO)(ITEMS_DIGGER)(ITEMS_ARMOR)
(ITEMS_HARD)
(ITEMS_METAL)
(ITEMS_BARRED)
(ITEMS_SCALED)
[SOLID_DENSITY:8250]
[LIQUID_DENSITY:8020]
[MOLAR_MASS:80000]
[IMPACT_YIELD:602000]
[IMPACT_FRACTURE:843500]
[IMPACT_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:547]
[COMPRESSIVE_YIELD:602000]
[COMPRESSIVE_FRACTURE:843500]
[COMPRESSIVE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:547] no data, used 110
[TENSILE_YIELD:172000]
[TENSILE_FRACTURE:241000]
[TENSILE_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156] 110
[TORSION_YIELD:172000]
[TORSION_FRACTURE:241000]
[TORSION_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156]
[SHEAR_YIELD:172000]
[SHEAR_FRACTURE:241000]
[SHEAR_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156] no data, used 110
[BENDING_YIELD:172000]
[BENDING_FRACTURE:241000]
[BENDING_STRAIN_AT_YIELD:156]
[MAX_EDGE:10000]
[STATE_COLOR:ALL_SOLID:BRONZE]