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[Flying Dice]

Yeah, sorry, I just edited in a bit I forgot, where Craft (Poison) grants immunity to your own poisons stops you from accidentally poisoning yourself with 4 ranks in it (IIRC). The RAW for poisonmaking and use are all kinds of fucked, in case you couldn't tell. 

[Kassire]

Out of curiosity, would you allow the houserules that Hans, GWG, and I built back during the planning for the kobold campaign re: poison, alchemical items, and the way they interact with sneak attack/crit? The goal was to make them viable, as opposed to the convoluted, underpowered, and oft-contradictory RAW.

Spoiler: Relevant bits are bolded (click to show/hide)

e: Reposting this lower down because I probably spent too long editing it. I'm interested to hear Han's thoughts on it, because it seems like a better way to houserule crits and sneak attacks for splash weapons, both in terms of meshing with the character and making sense.

If I were DM, I would figure out some way for crits and sneak attacks on the stuff with saving throws to increase the DC. I can see that (a good throw gets more of the stuff in the body), but massively increasing duration on a sneak attack makes...less sense.
The only questions are what bonus for a crit (+10?) and what for sneak attacks (+2/d6?)

2. I would actually love to see crits and sneak attacks increase DCs rather than add to effects. That would be brilliant, and would let those items stay effective into much higher levels than normal. Hm, a flat rate might not be the best for crits, considering that it would be far too much for lower-level items and too little for high-tier items. Multiply the DC by x1.3 on a crit, rounding up to the nearest whole number, perhaps? So a DC12 item that critted would have a DC of 18 for that attack, a DC25 item would have a DC of 37 for that attack, and so forth? That would come close to replicating the effect of a damage multiplier in terms of the effectiveness of the attack, keeping in mind that they'll only crit on natural 20s (unless I spend a feat just to expand my threat range with them to 19-20, which seems... wasteful).

For sneak attacks the dice roll for added DC seems good, assuming it scales with level. Maybe make it half the dice of my current sneak attack, rounding up. So for now I'd get 2d6 to DC, which would remain the same at 7th level, go up to 3d6 at 9th level, and so forth? At 20th level that'd give 5d6 additional DC on a successful sneak attack, which could range from near-pointless to a near-doubling of DC, depending on the roll and item. Just a thought.

This seems reasonable enough. /me bangs a gavel. Houseruled!

For sneak attacks the dice roll for added DC seems good, assuming it scales with level. Maybe make it half the dice of my current sneak attack, rounding up. So for now I'd get 2d6 to DC, which would remain the same at 7th level, go up to 3d6 at 9th level, and so forth? At 20th level that'd give 5d6 additional DC on a successful sneak attack, which could range from near-pointless to a near-doubling of DC, depending on the roll and item. Just a thought.

The multiplicative crit thing seems to be fine.
I actually meant a flat +2 DC for every d6 you would have otherwise. [RE: Sneak attacks with poisons/alchemical items]

Hm. That could work. It'd certainly be simpler to implement, and would require fewer rolls. I'm fine with changing it to this if Hans would prefer it. Either way works, I'm just happy to have these things be useful.

Oh, I almost forgot:

I expect that alchemical weapons that do damage without a DC (and ones with a damage component without a DC separate from a conditional component with a DC) just add typed sneak attack/crit damage normally? So a sneak attack hit with a firestone would be 1d6 + 3d6 fire damage, for example.

There was also something about 4 ranks in Craft (Poison) granting immunity to one's own poisons preventing you from poisoning yourself.

Obviously Dust of Sneezing and Choking would be flat-out banned because fuck that stuff. I'd probably suggest the same for Aboleth Mucus, considering that this is a explicitly non-powergamey campaign and it's a save-or-die (base) DC19 fort save for 20gp.

Heh, I always wanted to play that Kobold Batman character. Rogue/Swashbuckler just sounds like so damned much fun.

The only magical items which I absolutely, positively would need to be available at some point would be:
1. Belt of Many Pockets (CArc 148): 11k gp, 64x pouches with 10lbs/1cu ft. of capacity each, which act as mini-Haversacks; they respond to the wearer's desire, and extracting an object is a move action which doesn't provoke AOOs.
2. Glove of the Master Strategist (Ghost): 3.6k gp, acts as Glove of Storing and grants Truestrike 1/day.
3. Rod of Ropes (CS I don't remember, I can look it up when our WBL becomes relevant, have this link.

So what would DM and co-DM say to a skillmonkey rogue/swashbuckler specializing in rapiers and thrown/splash/ranged touch/whatever the fuck the splatbook you're currently reading calls them weapons.

So we're now having two swashbuckler's?

[Flying Dice]

Out of curiosity, would you allow the houserules that Hans, GWG, and I built back during the planning for the kobold campaign re: poison, alchemical items, and the way they interact with sneak attack/crit? The goal was to make them viable, as opposed to the convoluted, underpowered, and oft-contradictory RAW.

Spoiler: Relevant bits are bolded (click to show/hide)

e: Reposting this lower down because I probably spent too long editing it. I'm interested to hear Han's thoughts on it, because it seems like a better way to houserule crits and sneak attacks for splash weapons, both in terms of meshing with the character and making sense.

If I were DM, I would figure out some way for crits and sneak attacks on the stuff with saving throws to increase the DC. I can see that (a good throw gets more of the stuff in the body), but massively increasing duration on a sneak attack makes...less sense.
The only questions are what bonus for a crit (+10?) and what for sneak attacks (+2/d6?)

2. I would actually love to see crits and sneak attacks increase DCs rather than add to effects. That would be brilliant, and would let those items stay effective into much higher levels than normal. Hm, a flat rate might not be the best for crits, considering that it would be far too much for lower-level items and too little for high-tier items. Multiply the DC by x1.3 on a crit, rounding up to the nearest whole number, perhaps? So a DC12 item that critted would have a DC of 18 for that attack, a DC25 item would have a DC of 37 for that attack, and so forth? That would come close to replicating the effect of a damage multiplier in terms of the effectiveness of the attack, keeping in mind that they'll only crit on natural 20s (unless I spend a feat just to expand my threat range with them to 19-20, which seems... wasteful).

For sneak attacks the dice roll for added DC seems good, assuming it scales with level. Maybe make it half the dice of my current sneak attack, rounding up. So for now I'd get 2d6 to DC, which would remain the same at 7th level, go up to 3d6 at 9th level, and so forth? At 20th level that'd give 5d6 additional DC on a successful sneak attack, which could range from near-pointless to a near-doubling of DC, depending on the roll and item. Just a thought.

This seems reasonable enough. /me bangs a gavel. Houseruled!

For sneak attacks the dice roll for added DC seems good, assuming it scales with level. Maybe make it half the dice of my current sneak attack, rounding up. So for now I'd get 2d6 to DC, which would remain the same at 7th level, go up to 3d6 at 9th level, and so forth? At 20th level that'd give 5d6 additional DC on a successful sneak attack, which could range from near-pointless to a near-doubling of DC, depending on the roll and item. Just a thought.

The multiplicative crit thing seems to be fine.
I actually meant a flat +2 DC for every d6 you would have otherwise. [RE: Sneak attacks with poisons/alchemical items]

Hm. That could work. It'd certainly be simpler to implement, and would require fewer rolls. I'm fine with changing it to this if Hans would prefer it. Either way works, I'm just happy to have these things be useful.

Oh, I almost forgot:

I expect that alchemical weapons that do damage without a DC (and ones with a damage component without a DC separate from a conditional component with a DC) just add typed sneak attack/crit damage normally? So a sneak attack hit with a firestone would be 1d6 + 3d6 fire damage, for example.

There was also something about 4 ranks in Craft (Poison) granting immunity to one's own poisons preventing you from poisoning yourself.

Obviously Dust of Sneezing and Choking would be flat-out banned because fuck that stuff. I'd probably suggest the same for Aboleth Mucus, considering that this is a explicitly non-powergamey campaign and it's a save-or-die (base) DC19 fort save for 20gp.

Heh, I always wanted to play that Kobold Batman character. Rogue/Swashbuckler just sounds like so damned much fun.

The only magical items which I absolutely, positively would need to be available at some point would be:
1. Belt of Many Pockets (CArc 148): 11k gp, 64x pouches with 10lbs/1cu ft. of capacity each, which act as mini-Haversacks; they respond to the wearer's desire, and extracting an object is a move action which doesn't provoke AOOs.
2. Glove of the Master Strategist (Ghost): 3.6k gp, acts as Glove of Storing and grants Truestrike 1/day.
3. Rod of Ropes (CS I don't remember, I can look it up when our WBL becomes relevant, have this link.

So what would DM and co-DM say to a skillmonkey rogue/swashbuckler specializing in rapiers and thrown/splash/ranged touch/whatever the fuck the splatbook you're currently reading calls them weapons.[/s]

So we're now having two swashbuckler's?

It is a piracy campaign. 

Also, looking at the build you outlined, it looks like you're going more for a straight damage dealer; I'm building towards the eventual Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 endpoint as a slippery skillmonkey. Once my WBL hits a certain threshold the rapiers take the back seat to alchemical items and poisons for damage/save-or-x effects.

On a somewhat related note, would the DM consider allowing us to substitute something as an ACF for the free Weapon Finesse that Swash 1 gets if we've already taken it before CCing into Swash?

[Nerjin]

Uh... What?

[Flying Dice]

Swashbuckler 1 gets Weapon Finesse as a free bonus feat. Rogues tend to take Weapon Finesse immediately. If we take it at Rogue 1, are we just going to be fucked when we cross-class into Swashbuckler, or could we houserule up something as an ACF to replace that bonus feat at Swashbuckler 1, assuming we've already taken Weapon Finesse.

The alternative would be starting at Swash 1, but that'd (at least in my case) cripple my skill points at start.

[Nerjin]

I'm not sure what ACF means BUT I think I'll allow you to take a different but similar bonus feat for Swashbuckler.

[Flying Dice]

Alternate Class Feature, and awesome.

[Rolepgeek]

That's allowable, but as a note Nerjin;

Monitor crafting very carefully. It isn't easy to get poison or alchemy ingredients on the high seas, you know...

And if Flying Dice is trying what I think he's trying, he's using the way in which poison and alchemy can, to some degree, be used for utter amounts of cheese.

It's a cool idea as long as he doesn't take it too far, though. Just...keep an eye on him, ban certain poisons/alchemical items if they get too ridiculous, etc.

As well, if you use an alchemical item as a sneak attack and can justify how it would apply(throwing eggshell grenades at someone's kidneys will only give them a bruise at worst), you get +1 to the DC for every sneak attack die you have. Flanking does not let you do this.

Because Nerjin should know what he's dealing with and Flying Dice already knows about it
Because there's gonna be some cool stuff in here that isn't overpowered for Flying Dice to use, and Nerjin can ban the stuff that's ridiculous if necessary.

I will also take a look to be sure, and point out things you might want to ban. Don't just ban stuff cuz' it's good, though. Just stuff that's stupidly good/broken.

I would decide on the bonus feat now, or force him to, Nerjin, as you don't want to let him grab something ridiculous. >.> I'll try to think of some examples and see if you're both okay with them.

[Kassire]

Alternate Class Feature, and awesome.

Would it be acceptable if you and my characters probably going to be the more mischievous types, be some sort of "buddies" who would work together for mutual success? Such as supplying each other's mischievous needs?

[Rolepgeek]

Alternate Class Feature, and awesome.

Would it be acceptable if you and my characters probably going to be the more mischievous types, be some sort of "buddies" who would work together for mutual success? Such as supplying each other's mischievous needs?

Or you could be rivals, always trying to best the other in your own way. Honorable and Dishonorable Dread Pirates(you didn't ban that class, right Nerjin?) and whatnot.

[Kassire]

Alternate Class Feature, and awesome.

Would it be acceptable if you and my characters probably going to be the more mischievous types, be some sort of "buddies" who would work together for mutual success? Such as supplying each other's mischievous needs?

Or you could be rivals, always trying to best the other in your own way. Honorable and Dishonorable Dread Pirates(you didn't ban that class, right Nerjin?) and whatnot.

Or just kill that rich innkeeper and take all of his belongings and split it between ourselves, and then use the profits to hold a mutiny and take over the ship. Afterwords we will raid, pillage, and burn seaside villages and towns.

[Flying Dice]

1. I've already stated outright that I'm not going to be using certain things (again, Dust of Sneezing and Choking and Aboleth Mucus immediately spring to mind) and that they should be banned.

2. The justifications are pretty easy; the sneak attack and crit aspects are both rationalized as the character managing to target it precisely (e.g. an eggshell grenade right to the face, a thunderstone right beside their ear, a contact poison on exposed skin/a gap in armor, &c.)

3. RE: Arsenic & Old Lace: At least some of it isn't relevant, but it's a good read regardless. Actually, it brought to mind another aspect of the houseruled poisonmaking: Poisonmaking follows similar cost/time rules to other craft skills, and ingredients are assumed to be readily available in non-absurd situations. AKA you don't have to go out searching for a specific creature to kill to make a specific poison if you're already in a city, you can assume that someone will be selling it.

Also, thanks for that other source on alchemicals, I've been using a different one.

4. The feat I'd probably be looking at at that point would be Weapon Focus: Rapier. I'm planning on doing the first part of the CC at level 2, which would give me the BAB I need for it. Apart from that, all I'm really going to be building will be Daring Outlaw at level 6, the rest of the TWF tree, and some ranged stuff once I start using thrown weapons.

Alternate Class Feature, and awesome.

Would it be acceptable if you and my characters probably going to be the more mischievous types, be some sort of "buddies" who would work together for mutual success? Such as supplying each other's mischievous needs?

Or you could be rivals, always trying to best the other in your own way. Honorable and Dishonorable Dread Pirates(you didn't ban that class, right Nerjin?) and whatnot.

Or just kill that rich innkeeper and take all of his belongings and split it between ourselves, and then use the profits to hold a mutiny and take over the ship. Afterwords we will raid, pillage, and burn seaside villages and towns.

"Remember, first loot, then burn." 

Oh, and here's the sheet. Backstory tomorrow when I'm awake.

[Rolepgeek]

I think for sanity and fairness sake we can say that your levels in each class are tallied before being compared to BAB progression.

Otherwise you get true silliness like a level 1 cleric/level 1 rogue/level 1 swordsage/level 1 druid/level 1 warlock/level 1 swashbuckler having a BAB of +0, when it should really be +4.

Also, again, like I said, as long as you can justify it. But just throwing a blinding powder at someone from behind will not work. I don't expect Nerjin to be particularly harsh with the justification.

As for the feat...ehhn...I dunno if it fits into the flavor of the class, and my suspicious brain is trying to figure out what your angle on this is, considering weapon focus is typically poor, but I can't think of anything else and it shouldn't be bad at all.

[Kassire]

Would it be allowed if I switch my craft skill carpentry with weapon making?

[Nerjin]

Don't forget, Dice, that you also have to put certain things in the Additional Information section for the character to be considered complete.