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[yobbo]

Umm.

So here's the reason i didn't want to bring up what suspicions i have about you now.

I thought you were a cop.

I thought that was the best way to explain the weird feeling i got that you were being careful, and that i was getting a sort of scummy vibe all thru the game, and it perfectly explained your whole "woah woah! lets NOT talk about third parties okay?" thing at the start of the game.

But there's no way a cop would say

I have more to say on this, but if I get stabbed in the night, Yobbo is confirmed scum.

If you died and came up cop after that it would absolutely be a lynch on me. Because everyone would assume, seeing as you were a cop, that you had inspected me and that was your result.

But if you had inspected me, there's no way you'd be saying i'm scum.

And if you were a cop but hadn't inspected, there's no way you'd say something like that knowing that if you did die it would be seen as an inspect result.

So either you're vanilla town and you just painted a great big target on yourself saying "hey scum kill me and everyone will think it's yobbo".

Or you're scum, and you know that you won't be nightkilled anyway, so you can say whatever you want about what would happen if you get stabbed in the night, because you won't.


So because there's no reason anymore to tiptoe round it, these are the things that i wanted to point to that you've done that i think are scummy.


I already mentioned the "only active towns become victorious" thing that made me feel like you were setting up who to lynch. I don't think there's a strong argument that this is scummy, but it just felt off to me. here for example.


Much more suspicious is that in that post you also point out the idea behind why WIFOM is bad. But later you seem to actively be applying WIFOM to Frostmoon, saying

Secondly, and most importantly, you ask why scum would put forth a question like anailater's. Well, it seems to me that you now think he's town merely for asking that. Don't you think that could be a reason for choosing such a question? (That is, not so much for the answer as much as for the reputation for asking.) I'm not saying anailater is scum, necessarily. I'm just pointing something that seems to have been missed.

It also felt like you were doing the exact same thing to me:

Yobbo: You've been saying that I look scummy because I am too clear and do not seem to confront people. Does it make sense for me to become defensive? There's no game-related reason for me to worry too much about being lynched. If I die, I still win if the town does, so I'm going to continue probing into other players as much as possible. Of course, I don't want to die, but the point of the game is to play to your win condition, so the more I can scumhunt, the better.

this feels to me like trying to use extra time to stir up confusion, while Blitz's lynch is still pretty much assured (it was posted at the same time as i switched my vote, so written before).


here you clearly point suspicion at Deathsword and also clearly vote Blitz. But now when it looks like there's a chance Deathsword might get lynched in stead of Blitz you get very aggressive against those voting Deathsword. That makes me think that there's a strong possibility that the earlier suspicion post wasn't really suspicion but distancing, and that you fully expected the Blitz lynch to be a foregone conclusion. But now you're worried that your scumbuddy might get lynched, and reacting accordingly. You've even been trying to goad me into voting you, to split the vote on Deathsword.


here for example you're making a big point of saying that your case on deathsword depends almost entirely on Blitz being scum. This along with your aggressive protection of Deathsword makes me feel like you're trying to set up a situation where Deathsword is exonerated when Blitz comes up town.


There's still not much there i can point at, which is why i thought it could wait, and thought it would be fine if i died and noone heard it.

And a lot of it feels like it relies on you being in a scumteam with Deathsword. Which is a large part of why i'm voting Deathsword and not you. (i think i already explained the rest).


And as far as me and anailater being a scumteam, if we were both mafia there's no way i would jump over and vote Deathsword in a situation like this. The only votes on him would be ours, and it wouldn't even be a majority. If we were the scumteam then Blitz would be town and there would be no reason not to just let him be lynched.

As for parallel arguments i think that two people coming to the same conclusion for the same reasons makes them both more likely to be right.

The rest of your post about anailater and me being a scumteam… well i can reply point by point, but i don't really see how it can be so. Sure, maybe it's possible that the whole thing at the start was a set-up (which it wasn't). But then i still don't think there's any way either of us would be acting the way we are.

Maybe there's a possibility anailater and Blitz are a scumteam and anailater's trying to save him and i'm being suckered, but i don't think so.

Just quickly running thru the remaining points i don't think i've answered:

I don't think the thing i brought up when i unvoted anailater was a rule disagreement. This is my first game. I was really unsure whether what i was doing was maybe horrendously wrong (i don't think it was now).

The question Nerjin asked anailater… "why did you ask about avoiding being night-killed?". I thought that was a scummy thing to ask. Especially with all you'd been saying about how anything that might risk outing third parties was a really bad thing to be doing. Presumably you did too.

In regards to not putting real pressure on anailater, a vote that looks like it is serious is a vote that has pressure. I think you're wilfully misinterpreting this.

[BlitzDungeoneer]

PFP
Scripten: I'm not entirely sure what this question means. I'm fairly certain that, when I asked that question, you mentioned not to rolefish, so there's a mention. I think some other people accused me of it as well.
Inconsistency? I did say it was suspicious, yes, but that doesn't mean you can just be like 'OMG he's rolefishing' when the question specifically asks what role you think I have, not what roles everybody else has.

[Scripten]

Umm.

So here's the reason i didn't want to bring up what suspicions i have about you now.

I thought you were a cop.

-snip-

So either you're vanilla town and you just painted a great big target on yourself saying "hey scum kill me and everyone will think it's yobbo".

Or you're scum, and you know that you won't be nightkilled anyway, so you can say whatever you want about what would happen if you get stabbed in the night, because you won't.

I figured as much. See, that's the problem with withholding information. I wasn't making a soft claim when I said that. In fact, I explained exactly why I said what I did. That is, to ensure that pressure was kept on you to tell everyone what your suspicions were.

And frankly, the advice I gave about avoiding rolefishing, even accidental, was just advice. I can't respond to a "scummy vibe" accusation, so let's move on to the meat of this conversation:

So because there's no reason anymore to tiptoe round it, these are the things that i wanted to point to that you've done that i think are scummy.


I already mentioned the "only active towns become victorious" thing that made me feel like you were setting up who to lynch. I don't think there's a strong argument that this is scummy, but it just felt off to me. here for example.

Are you serious? Of course that's not scummy. We've had people lurking all game and it's making it very difficult to play well. And I'm not wrong; only active towns win. Exactly how would I use that to set up a lynch target? By targeting lurkers? We've already established that lurking is not good for the town. Nobody has claimed that Blitz is lurking, but I still find him the scummiest. "It just felt off to me" is wishy-washy crap. Passive towns lose and I don't want to lose, simple as that.

Much more suspicious is that in that post you also point out the idea behind why WIFOM is bad. But later you seem to actively be applying WIFOM to Frostmoon, saying

-snip-

It also felt like you were doing the exact same thing to me:

-snip-

this feels to me like trying to use extra time to stir up confusion, while Blitz's lynch is still pretty much assured (it was posted at the same time as i switched my vote, so written before).

I think you misunderstand. WIFOM situations aren't a bad thing to point out and/or talk about. It's essentially saying that something doesn't mean anything because of how many different things it could mean.

Regarding Frostmoon: She had cleared anailater in her mind because he asked a question that she thought couldn't be asked by scum. I explained how easily scum could use that question to make her do exactly what she'd done. If anailater is scum, then by asking a very simple question, he's already got one person off his back for at least a large portion of the game.

Regarding myself: I don't even know what you mean by saying that quote of mine is a WIFOM situation. You said that I was the most scummy to you and, prior to the post I'm replying to right now, the only reasons you'd put forth were that I was "clear and non-confrontational." I said that there's no reason for me to spend too much time defending myself, since I know I'm town, when I could be spending that time scumhunting. (Which, by the way, is all about confronting people.) Or do you deny that I've been scumhunting? If so, then please point it out, because I can only respond to suspicions that I know something about.

here you clearly point suspicion at Deathsword and also clearly vote Blitz. But now when it looks like there's a chance Deathsword might get lynched in stead of Blitz you get very aggressive against those voting Deathsword. That makes me think that there's a strong possibility that the earlier suspicion post wasn't really suspicion but distancing, and that you fully expected the Blitz lynch to be a foregone conclusion. But now you're worried that your scumbuddy might get lynched, and reacting accordingly. You've even been trying to goad me into voting you, to split the vote on Deathsword.


here for example you're making a big point of saying that your case on deathsword depends almost entirely on Blitz being scum. This along with your aggressive protection of Deathsword makes me feel like you're trying to set up a situation where Deathsword is exonerated when Blitz comes up town.

Is it not obvious, because I believe that Deathsword's scumminess is directly related to Blitz's, that I want to see Blitz lynched first? I think it's apparent that I find Blitz to be significantly  more scummy than anyone else here, so it should be equally so that I'm trying to get obvscum lynched, rather than potential scum.

I wasn't trying to goad you into voting me. I want you to vote on who you think is the scummiest, as right now you're working on assumptions that I'm not comfortable making. I'm being aggressive about lynching Deathsword today because I don't think he's scum based only on his own merits.

There's still not much there i can point at, which is why i thought it could wait, and thought it would be fine if i died and noone heard it.

And a lot of it feels like it relies on you being in a scumteam with Deathsword. Which is a large part of why i'm voting Deathsword and not you. (i think i already explained the rest).

Don't withhold information. If you have made a logical argument based on the thread, which everyone can see, then say so. Make your damn case if you've got one. Of course, if it includes having to make a roleclaim, then don't do that, but it's really irrelevant whether you think I'm cop or not. My advice from the beginning of the game holds for town no matter what role I may or may not have. Basically what you've been doing for this whole time is just a form of unintentional rolefishing. If I am the cop, then I'm not going to do anything that gives it away to scum. That includes being passive and avoiding saying things "a cop would definitely not say."

And as far as me and anailater being a scumteam, if we were both mafia there's no way i would jump over and vote Deathsword in a situation like this. The only votes on him would be ours, and it wouldn't even be a majority. If we were the scumteam then Blitz would be town and there would be no reason not to just let him be lynched.

Deathsword is an IC and Blitz is very, very scummy. If we lynch Deathsword today, Blitz is still going to be the scummiest come tomorrow, meaning he's likely to be lynched. That's two nights of mislynches if you two are a scumteam. Pretty much the game in a bag.

As for parallel arguments i think that two people coming to the same conclusion for the same reasons makes them both more likely to be right.

Unless the people who are following are just trying to buddy a town player with good arguments that are nonetheless wrong. So far, I haven't seen anything original come from either of you regarding your lynch targets. That blatant bandwagoning feels scummy.

Maybe there's a possibility anailater and Blitz are a scumteam and anailater's trying to save him and i'm being suckered, but i don't think so.

This is also a possibility in my mind. My line of thinking goes like this:

- If Blitz is scum, then either Deathsword or anailater are his scumbuddy. I would focus on Deathsword for an entire day and see what we can dig up.

- If Blitz is town, then I suspect you and anailater. Since anailater is much more scummy, I would want to lynch him and see what turns up.

Just quickly running thru the remaining points i don't think i've answered:

I don't think the thing i brought up when i unvoted anailater was a rule disagreement. This is my first game. I was really unsure whether what i was doing was maybe horrendously wrong (i don't think it was now).

Keeping your vote on someone is fine. The only time I unvote, for example, is when I'm totally satisfied that my target is not the scummiest person in the game at the time, so I usually have my vote on one person or another. Of course, you don't need to play the same way I do.

The question Nerjin asked anailater… "why did you ask about avoiding being night-killed?". I thought that was a scummy thing to ask. Especially with all you'd been saying about how anything that might risk outing third parties was a really bad thing to be doing. Presumably you did too.

Nope. I assumed anailater was smart enough not to reveal any role he might have. Actually, the way I took the question was more along the lines of, "What do you(Nerjin) think is the best way to avoid being night killed?" When you read it like a threat and/or a way to find a night kill target, Nerjin's response becomes a LOT more town-sided. Essentially, it could be construed as, "Why do you want strategies for finding those who are trying to avoid being stabbed?"

In regards to not putting real pressure on anailater, a vote that looks like it is serious is a vote that has pressure. I think you're wilfully misinterpreting this.

Remember that my post was made in light of it being a thought experiment where you two are a scum team. In that mindset, your words are suspicious, though I do not find them inherently scummy overall.

PFP
Scripten: I'm not entirely sure what this question means. I'm fairly certain that, when I asked that question, you mentioned not to rolefish, so there's a mention. I think some other people accused me of it as well.
Inconsistency? I did say it was suspicious, yes, but that doesn't mean you can just be like 'OMG he's rolefishing' when the question specifically asks what role you think I have, not what roles everybody else has.

Not an accusation. I said not to do it, but I haven't used it as evidence for you being scum. There's far more accurate evidence in the thread thus far. Right now you're doing exactly what we've been accusing you of, which is deflection. I asked you why you're suddenly concentrating on rolefishing, when you've only been accused of being scummy for it once. You're responding by defending yourself from accusations of rolefishing, which is not why we think you're scum.

Deflection. Hence, you look like scum.

[BlitzDungeoneer]

Has the day not ended yet?

[yobbo]

Sorry i don't have much time to post right now. I probably won't be able to get back on before the day ends either, so in case nothing changes:

unvote Deathsword because i don't want a no-lynch

vote Blitz because otherwise he could potentially tie the vote at the last minute

(assuming i'm counting votes right)

[Scripten]

Has the day not ended yet?

The day ends at 7pm PST tonight.

[Teneb]

My apologies if you felt I was absent, but I had a lot going on.

{I forgot to mention this during the last weekend, but weekends themselves don't count as far as game-time goes. This means inactivity is often excused as long as said inactivity took place exclusively during the weekend.}

I noticed I am not voting Blitz despite me thinking I was already. I am actually not sure if Blitz is scum or not. His role-flip, however, will clear out a lot of stuff for me.

In response to yobbo's post: I mentioned I probably missed some questions, yes? You seem to have blatantly ignored this.

Oh i noticed.

So I see. You noticed it so much you blatantly ignored it.

Not at all.

What yobbo means here, I think, is that you mentioning that you might've missed questions does not excuse you from answering them. Furthermore, bringing up the questions you missed and calling you on it is not scummy behavior.

Is this a question?
And by that, I mean am I supposed to respond to this or is it rhetoric?

If you mean my post itself, that was merely a clarification.

So...
I'm out of the game so soon? Meh.
Before I go, I want to say;
It's been fun guys, and I can see why some enjoy it. I did I this game. I wonder if I should even post for the rest of the game... Not like it would make a difference. This post probably marks me as scummy in everybody else's minds as it is.

{You are clearly new, so it doesn't. It would normally. Still, you are not out until you are out. Keep playing.}

Deathsword: You don't seem at all unhappy with how things currently are. Maybe this seems something like "situation normal" to you? I notice you're not voting Blitz, even tho you were on Day 1, and are still questioning him. Does he seem less scummy to you now than he did then?

I forgot to vote for him. It's quite embarassing, really. He seems very ambiguous right now, and that, to me, is a very bad thing. The reason why is that his "newbiness" {By the way, Blitz, please don't take this as an insult or anything. I actually flailed way harder in my first game.} is... muddying up the waters, for lack of a better term. If he flips, I can see how everyone interacted with him and go from there.

Deathsword: Wgat do you think of the things I said about the lack of value in your posts!

Could you clarify? My posts do tend towards the laconic, but I believe I actually put content into them, even if you don't think its relevant.

DEATHSWORD!: Answer my question or I'll be forced to act on my suspicions without your input!

Weekend and stuff. My post count drops significantly in weekends. Expect that kind of thing.

If deathsword doesn't respond in the next hour, I'm changing my vote to him irregardless, he's dodging questions and my gut says he's not trustworthy.

{Not posting != dodging questions. Just to clear out the terminology. You could have accused me of lurking, but dodging questions would be me answering your questions with "I don't care either way", "maybe", "meh", etc}



Now, Anailater: Could please put up a case of why I am scum? What scummy behaviour have I done? Plain lurking doesn't a scum make. Lurkers lurk. What scummy behaviour have I exhibited? Build a case or find someone else to try to get an easy vote on.

Your whole case (and yobbo's!) rests on me lurking. I did quite a few posts, yet you did no effort to try and find anything scummy in those. So, pray tell, why am I scum again?

If Blitz flips town then I think I got at least half the scum team figured out.

As a side observation: it seems I got a natural talent both in the internet as well as meatspace of being forgotten about easily.

[Scripten]

{I forgot to mention this during the last weekend, but weekends themselves don't count as far as game-time goes. This means inactivity is often excused as long as said inactivity took place exclusively during the weekend.}

I had never noticed this. That explains quite a lot.

I forgot to vote for him. It's quite embarassing, really. He seems very ambiguous right now, and that, to me, is a very bad thing. The reason why is that his "newbiness" {By the way, Blitz, please don't take this as an insult or anything. I actually flailed way harder in my first game.} is... muddying up the waters, for lack of a better term. If he flips, I can see how everyone interacted with him and go from there.

-snip-

If Blitz flips town then I think I got at least half the scum team figured out.

This is very close to my suspicions regarding Blitz. I feel that, if he is town, then anailater is almost certainly scum. I am unsure of where to go after that, though. Yobbo and Illgeo both seem suspicious, but for different, equally ambiguous reasons. Yobbo bandwagoned like a fiend earlier today, but Illgeo has been incredibly quiet and is active lurking quite a lot. If Blitz is scum, then I'm not really sure where to go. Probably anailater, but a number of other players could also be his partner.

[anailater]

Deathswird: Apologise other the weekend thing but you're wrong, you say quite clearly in your post that "Your whole case (and yobbo's!) rests on me lurking" While I did use that as a leaping point that wasn't my main basis of argument, my argument was that the posts you did make had no real content, so much so that I completely forgot you waste in this game, as I've stated before a majority of my posts are from phone, so it's difficult to make a concrete quoteing case, but as I've stated it's not so much what you have said but what you haven't, and you have to admit not posting at all at the (at the time) final hours of the game, when you had questions directed at you, is suspicious.
PFP

[Scripten]

Anailater: If you're going to make a case against someone, then you need to be able to cite some sort of specifics. Bring up cases of where this sort of things has happened. you don't need to quote everything, but as long as you refer to it somehow, we can all know where you're coming from and, possibly, agree with you. Do you have a computer you can access? It seems a little unfair to the town if you're able to avoid answering questions because you're always using your phone.

[anailater]

Anailater: If you're going to make a case against someone, then you need to be able to cite some sort of specifics. Bring up cases of where this sort of things has happened. you don't need to quote everything, but as long as you refer to it somehow, we can all know where you're coming from and, possibly, agree with you. Do you have a computer you can access? It seems a little unfair to the town if you're able to avoid answering questions because you're always using your phone.

As I've already stated the problem isn't a quite able thing, it's just a very string feeling I have, I can't explain why and if I try then I just end up making holes in my own argument, I never said that that I was right in my suspicions, only that I believed in what I was saying, if that makes me suspicious that makes me suspicious, but at the very least I can say that everything I did, I did because I thought if wad right.
And no in cant access a computer, it sucks but I just have to deal with it.
PFP

[Teneb]

Anailater: Show me where I do not post content. Just say the post number if you have to, but explain WHY there's not content there.

[anailater]

I've already stated that I can't! My suspicions are nothing more than that, huwever those same suspicions are also telling me that Blitz shouldn't be my main target, maybe he's just inexperienced, maybe his an inexperienced scum? Either way he's not a real threat, I can't explain why I think your dangerous, I just think you are.
PFP

[Scripten]

So, basically, you can't make a case after the person you confronted actually replies to you? How do you expect people to agree with you if you don't even know why you're voting a certain way?

[anailater]

So, basically, you can't make a case after the person you confronted actually replies to you? How do you expect people to agree with you if you don't even know why you're voting a certain way?

I DON'T KNOW! Right now in trying to roll with the lunches and get my point across, but I'm really bad at that! Add in the fact that no ones willing to point out the fact that I'm just as new, if not newer, to this game than Blitz and I get flustered, I'm not going to change my opinion, and your nit going to change yours, in a few more hours Blitz will be voted out and someone will be night killed, you'll most likely have your own opinions by then, as will I (Assuming we're not dead......) Im honestly just trying to help Town win, just not very well.

As for why people joined, I don't know? Maybe Yobbo just agreed with me, maybe he was trying to stop the pending lynch of Blitz, who can say until the end?
PFP