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Author Topic: A standard for Internet Arguments  (Read 3503 times)

Angle

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A standard for Internet Arguments
« on: July 03, 2014, 03:27:28 pm »

Spoiler: OP, now obsolete (click to show/hide)

Edit: I rather like this set posted by palsch, and wish to adopt them.

My own basics;

1) Remember the debate is public, not personal.
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2) Try to use debates to learn something.
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3) Focus on the strongest arguments your opposition could put forwards and the root of their beliefs.
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4) Ignore insults and personal attacks completely.
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5) Ideas have inertia. Public opinions doubly so.
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6) Read lots, post little.
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7) There are no win conditions.
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8) Calling out fallacies is no substitute for an actual argument.
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« Last Edit: July 14, 2014, 03:37:13 pm by Angle »
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Angle

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2014, 03:33:46 pm »

Alright, lets make that "Don't make things any more personal than they need to be."

And as for the second, That's why 'm writing these out. So that people can start referring to them and saying "I follow these when I argue, you should too." Then people will try and keep their arguments on topic, at least to some extent.
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Angle

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2014, 03:37:09 pm »

Perhaps. I still think it's worth trying, though.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2014, 04:01:06 pm »

1. Argue anonymously.
2. Maintain coherency of argument.
3. Avoid fallacies.
4. Provide citations.

Jelle

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2014, 04:16:16 pm »

1. Avoid hyperbole and strawman arguments. These two are so incredibly common in internet arguments, even in these forums, and are pretty much the reason I abstain from most any internet argument.

2. The former two also go hand in hand with presumptuousness and self righteousness, which also plague internet arguments. The latter is especially common in certain internet discussion communities these days Ive found.
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Sergarr

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2014, 04:24:29 pm »

There's a desperate need for Debating and Logic courses in school.
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Jelle

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2014, 04:32:24 pm »

There's a desperate need for Debating and Logic courses in school.
I would strongly disagree that logic has anything to do with debating, but rather with discussing. A debate is just a display of charisma, a fight with words with a winner and a loser. A discussion on the other hand...
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Guardian G.I.

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2014, 04:44:04 pm »

There's a desperate need for Debating and Logic courses in school.
Fun fact: logic used to be in the school curriculum in the Soviet Union during the times of Stalin - it was added in 1947 and removed in 1955, after the death of Stalin.
Here's a PDF of a Soviet logic textbook from 1954 (in Russian, obviously).
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2014, 04:46:43 pm »

Here's the two rules that are necessary and sufficient for any proper discussion to happen:

1) Your single goal in the discussion is to end up having the same beliefs regarding the subject of discussion as the opponent.
2) Be rational.

An average internet debate violates both rules immediately, so no wonder they never get anywhere.
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palsch

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2014, 04:52:28 pm »

My own basics;

1) Remember the debate is public, not personal.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2) Try to use debates to learn something.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

3) Focus on the strongest arguments your opposition could put forwards and the root of their beliefs.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4) Ignore insults and personal attacks completely.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

5) Ideas have inertia. Public opinions doubly so.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

6) Read lots, post little.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7) There are no win conditions.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

8) Calling out fallacies is no substitute for an actual argument.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And just wanted to touch on this;
1. Arguments should be impersonal. This is about ideas, not people.
This falls into the civility and tone argument problem. A lot of topics are directly personal for some. A lot of arguments that are dispassionate and academic for one side are direct attacks on the person of the other.

I've seen people make dispassionate arguments that a certain type of person doesn't deserve to live who then dismiss people who fit into that category because they got angry and emotional.

That's before noting that the best writing for actually convincing people is emotional. Ignoring that and trying to pretend we are all beings of pure logic is to ignore the way the world works. I've also notice a lot of people who don't recognise that their own arguments are based on emotional responses but are willing to call out other people's as such when they need to dismiss them.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2014, 05:47:39 pm »

Here's the two rules that are necessary and sufficient for any proper discussion to happen:

1) Your single goal in the discussion is to end up having the same beliefs regarding the subject of discussion as the opponent.
2) Be rational.

An average internet debate violates both rules immediately, so no wonder they never get anywhere.

1. Rule 1 is an awful goal.
2. Rule 2 is ok.

MagmaMcFry

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2014, 06:16:17 pm »

How'd you figure? If you follow Rule 2, Rule 1 will eventually lead to both parties being at least as correct as before (having agreed on at least an optimal hybrid of both points of view). If your goal is solely to convince the other person of your own beliefs, then the discussion will necessarily lead nowhere.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2014, 06:19:16 pm by MagmaMcFry »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2014, 06:21:44 pm »

Rule 2 will not necessarily lead to rule 1, as both parties can act rationally and come to differing conclusions.

If your goal is solely to convince the other person of your own beliefs, then the discussion will necessarily lead nowhere.
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Gentlefish

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2014, 06:29:19 pm »

How'd you figure? If you follow Rule 2, Rule 1 will eventually lead to both parties being at least as correct as before (having agreed on at least an optimal hybrid of both points of view). If your goal is solely to convince the other person of your own beliefs, then the discussion will necessarily lead nowhere.

A hybrid point of view on creationism/evolution is wrong. For factual debates, like on global warming, evolution, and religion, there is NO middle ground or optimal hybrid. Thus rule 2 will often preclude rule 1 since most arguments people get into are political ((irrational, therefore there goes rule 2)) or factual ((Only one side can be rational, thus if there is a hybrid agreement, they are no longer rational. And it is very, very hard to change the irrational thoughts of a person/side in a single debate. See Bill Nye vs. That Creationism Guy. I'm sure both side thought they won even though Bill Nye was the only one to stay rational.))

MagmaMcFry

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Re: A standard for Internet Arguments
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2014, 06:43:58 pm »

Rule 2 will not necessarily lead to rule 1, as both parties can act rationally and come to differing conclusions.
Aumann's Agreement Theorem says you actually always eventually agree, if you argue long enough. Obviously perfect agreement is nigh unachievable in this sense, but having perfect agreement as the goal means that even short discussions lead to at least some enlightenment, usually even quite a lot.

Quote
If your goal is solely to convince the other person of your own beliefs, then the discussion will necessarily lead nowhere.
Thou hast painted a man of straw upon which rrrrule trois would have prevented
I already refuted your argument in the previous sentence; that was just additional clarification in case you had that particular alternative goal in mind, because that is usually the goal people have in mind when debating.
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