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Author Topic: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread  (Read 33150 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2014, 12:49:32 am »

Sin in Christianity is traditionally defined as actions taken against the will of God.
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Angle

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2014, 12:50:44 am »

Yes, I know what sins are. I want to know how bad that one is i comparison to others.
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MaximumZero

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2014, 12:54:24 am »

I wanted to know what it was, Angle. MSH just gave me the textbook definition, though, which really doesn't have any meat to it.

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why religious folk think and act the way they do.
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BlitzDungeoneer

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2014, 12:54:40 am »

Sin in Christianity is traditionally defined as actions taken against the will of God.
Good to know.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2014, 12:54:54 am »

Legit question: Are sins enumerated? I can never seem to find a list.

Furthermore, what the hell is "sin" supposed to be? The concept is completely foreign to me. It's always been this weird, intentionally vague concept that no one could or wanted to explain properly.

Edited for clarity.
A sin is basically doing something that God said not to do.

The general consensus is that yes, they are enumerated, but it's a moot point because it doesn't actually have any bearing on whether you go to Heaven or Hell.

Sin in Christianity is traditionally defined as actions taken against the will of God.

I don't want flames, I just want discussion. I didn't throw any insults, I just asked questions. They weren't even dickish questions.

I had missed the PM comment. I suppose we could do things that way. I prefer more involved discussions though, so I'd rather just use the thread. I promise not to flame, even if others outright flame me. Anyone else willing to make the same promise?
This sounds fairly reasonable.

Edit: Ninja'd about twenty times
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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2014, 12:56:28 am »

I wanted to know what it was, Angle. MSH just gave me the textbook definition, though, which really doesn't have any meat to it.

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of why religious folk think and act the way they do.

Oh, I had missed that.

I need to pay more attention...
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2014, 12:58:39 am »

Yes, I know what sins are. I want to know how bad that one is i comparison to others.
I was answering the others.

As for sin badness, it depends on whom you are talking to. Some adhere to the idea of a venial/mortal sin divide, where most sins are minor infractions that do not ensure damnation, but some are utterly damning and require active repentance separate from becoming a Christian. Others believe that all sins are equal, that any sin prevents salvation, and thus the grace of Jesus is required. Notably, the New Testament does mention one unforgivable sin, denying the power of the holy spirit. What exactly the conditions for that are is occasionally a matter of debate.

Homosexuality, when subjected to being considered worse than most other sins, is generally treated with the rhetoric that Proper Marriage is the basic unit of God's plan. This includes literal marriage between humans and the metaphorical marriage of Christ and the Church. Marriage being conflated with sex here (and non-marriage sex always being condemned), homosexuality is thus a kind of absolute perversion of divine command.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2014, 01:00:02 am »

As for sin badness, it depends on whom you are talking to. Some adhere to the idea of a venial/mortal sin divide, where most sins are minor infractions that do not ensure damnation, but some are utterly damning and require active repentance separate from becoming a Christian. Others believe that all sins are equal, that any sin prevents salvation, and thus the grace of Jesus is required.

Homosexuality, when subjected to being considered worse than most other sins, is generally treated with the rhetoric that Proper Marriage is the basic unit of God's plan. This includes literal marriage between humans and the metaphorical marriage of Christ and the Church. Marriage being conflated with sex here (and non-marriage sex always being condemned), homosexuality is thus a kind of absolute perversion of divine command.
This guy knows his stuff ^^
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MaximumZero

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #68 on: July 15, 2014, 01:01:04 am »

it's a moot point because it doesn't actually have any bearing on whether you go to Heaven or Hell.
Then, a) why so much worrying about other peoples' sins, and b) why worry about sin at all?

If it's been rendered moot, why hasn't it been taken completely off the table?
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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #69 on: July 15, 2014, 01:03:00 am »

So it's more or less the equivalent of adultery, then?

What if they get married? Is it still a sin then?

Though I suppose their probably not supposed to get married. But, hypothetically speaking, suppose they could. Would it still be a sin then?
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #70 on: July 15, 2014, 01:06:04 am »

it's a moot point because it doesn't actually have any bearing on whether you go to Heaven or Hell.
Then, a) why so much worrying about other peoples' sins, and b) why worry about sin at all?

If it's been rendered moot, why hasn't it been taken completely off the table?
My guess is that he's talking about humanity being inundated with sins, such that not sinning is impossible for any person and thus that it doesn't really change anything about one's cosmic fate. Rather, it is being saved or not saved by the grace of Jesus that determines Heaven or Hell.
So it's more or less the equivalent of adultery, then?
Not for people who give it special status. (Straight) Adultery is just straying from a proper marriage, where as homosexuality is inverting proper marriage.
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What if they get married? Is it still a sin then?

Though I suppose their probably not supposed to get married. But, hypothetically speaking, suppose they could. Would it still be a sin then?
Most who believe this would tell you that same-sex marriage is metaphysically impossible, as marriage has a divine component that God would not grant to a non-sanctioned form of paring. Thus all same-sex marriage on Earth is merely human delusion.
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Willfor

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #71 on: July 15, 2014, 01:13:02 am »

Well if it's a discussion you're after (and I realize I am going to be ninja'd into forever while I type this out)

The definition of sin that I am most familiar with is deed and thought that doesn't line up with God's will. Deed is, of course, the most outwardly visible of these. It is also the least important of these. Because it is impossible to live without having been completely perfect, these do exist for everyone. Every single person. But they are still the least important. Thought is a more complex and less naive view of things, but preachers long ago found that when you try to pitch that to congregations, you only reach about 20% of the audience, even if they're going along with everything you're saying about deed. So, not as much emphasis is placed on it. Regardless, let's delve into these.

I don't believe in this particular list, but let's go for it because everyone will recognize it: wrath, avarice, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony. Thought is more important because deeds are temporary things. You get mad at your friend so you hit him, but after it's done you two work it out, and even though you've sinned and you hurt someone, everything is fine isn't it? Well, you've still sinned, but that's a deed. But what if you did it a lot? What if you constantly gave into wrath? Well, you probably wouldn't have friends for long, and, you know, God's just as uncomfortable watching you blow up at other people he's quite fond of and it does make everything very awkward when he's trying to like you too, so ...

Then, let's distill all of this down to its very essence, because even with all the thought sins, there's really only one in there that's really bad. Pride. Everything else on that list is something you can be ashamed of having in a reasonable society. Every other thing on that list is something that can pass though a person, and if they're called on it it's fine. Pride will look you in the eye if you tell it that it's wrong and go "fuck you, you're not my dad, and even if you are, fuck you harder!" It's a zero sum sin. It's confrontational. It's the king on the mountain who says that he's worked hard enough to deserve his place, and everyone else is inferior. It's the man on the street who tosses your money back in your face. It's this youtube video. It's the sin that you have that will tell you that you're all alone in the world and no one's going to look out for you. It's the sin that closes you off, and when you see it other people it makes you want to punch them in the face, but you can almost never see it in yourself.

Aside: since it's rather confusing, there are a couple of definitions of pride, and the one I'm referring to is most certainly not the one that you use in the context of "I'm proud of who I am!" or "I'm proud of you!" That's the pride of satisfaction about something you like. Self-esteem, satisfaction in a job that you've done, satisfaction about your own identity, and the identity of the community that surrounds you, these are important and good things. The pride I refer to as a sin is when the ego overrides reality, and you isolate everything good to yourself without consideration of others.

Anyway, I realize that this is not the definition that the average Christian is going to give you, but after 2,000 years of discussion and divergence on this topic, this is the definition that I've heard that resonates with me the best. Cheers.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #72 on: July 15, 2014, 01:13:47 am »

What if they get married? Is it still a sin then?

Though I suppose their probably not supposed to get married. But, hypothetically speaking, suppose they could. Would it still be a sin then?
Most who believe this would tell you that same-sex marriage is metaphysically impossible, as marriage has a divine component that God would not grant to a non-sanctioned form of paring. Thus all same-sex marriage on Earth is merely human delusion.
Roman Catholics believe in the sacrament of marriage, that is, it's instituted by God and has a "divine component". Most Protestant churches believe that it's just a representation of Christ and the church, but intended for man and woman.
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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #73 on: July 15, 2014, 01:17:44 am »

This just in: Willfor is an immortal, and has been around for 2000 years.
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Willfor

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Re: Hell/Jack Chick/Bible/Christianity etc. Discussion thread
« Reply #74 on: July 15, 2014, 01:18:47 am »

Dammit! I've been trying to hide that fact for so long and then I just spill it out like that?

:(
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