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Author Topic: The problem with kill bragging  (Read 2266 times)

Blastbeard

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The problem with kill bragging
« on: June 29, 2014, 12:59:49 am »

We've all been there. You take your BAMF vampire/necromancer/husk/all of the above out for a spin in adventure mode, and you come across a particularly gnarly historical figure with a great many kills to his/her/its name, eager to reduce you to nothing more than another name on a list I'm about to go off on. You're quite gangster yourself, and honor dictates that only one bad dude can survive the ordeal, resulting in a battle the world will remember for all time.
As you do battle against this worthy foe, he/she/it makes certain to remind you of all those who came before you and fell like so much wheat before the harvest.
Over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.
It gets repetitive, it gets old, it gets boring. What should be a clash between living legends becomes a crawling ordeal repeatedly interrupted by a long list of people who lost the not-dying contest, which you have no choice but to sit through before getting back to the action. It would be like if a boss battle of any other game was interrupted by a cutscene every time you landed a hit.

Anyone who's played adventure mode long enough has dealt with it at some point. Some opponents are better about it than others, almost never mentioning their kills, while some will rattle off their list every single turn, dragging out the ordeal for much longer than it needs to go on. It can wear on the nerves after awhile and subtract form the experience, but I will admit, it is a very strong motivator to kill the offending creature.

So how best to deal with this issue? You could include the option to remove kill bragging entirely. More options is good options, but there are better and more subtle ways of handling this.
I do think creatures that cannot speak should not have any ability to brag about their kills. If the creature cannot speak, it has no way of conveying that it has killed other creatures, and whoever it would convey this message to should have no knowledge of the creature's history unless learned from elsewhere, such as hearsay from the inhabitants of a nearby settlement.

As for historical figures who can speak and tell you all about who they've killed, I suggest a much more fluid way of getting the bragging out of the way. Instead of having them list every single historical figure they've killed all at once, it would be better if they did one at a time in a way someone would actually say such a thing.
For instance, at the beginning of a fight they could say something like "Say hello to Deadguy Firstexample when I send you to the underworld!", or " I didn't beat Wimpy Weaksauce to death with his own foot to lose to the likes of you!" The latter could tie in with how injuries sustained during duels are tracked, with the braggart stating how he injured a previous opponent in some way.
As the fight goes on, the way bragging is conveyed should change to reflect the pace of the battle.
"You remind me of Mook Monkeybreath. I hated that guy."
"Come on now, Diesinonehit Letdown put up a better fight than you!"
"I haven't had a fight this good since Opponent Worthyfights!"
The way the opponent brags about past victories doesn't necessarily have to reflect how much of a fight you're putting up, or how much of a fight the previous opponent put up. The point is the braggart should brag in small increments, and more importantly putting at least a little variety into how they get the message out.
If they have to tell you about every single one of their kills, it should be at an appropriate time, namely when it appears as if the fight is about to end. If you're getting the upper hand and it looks like they're about to die, they might want to take the time to tell you their life's story. If you want to do away with the current method of kill bragging entirely, you could have them just give a quick summary such as, "I am Enpeecy Killquest! I have killed many foes, and you will not be the end of me!"

I just think it's a royal pain to have to wade through conversation window after conversation window just because a certain successful historical figure can't shut up about who they've beaten. Something should be done and this is all I've got to contribute to see that end met.

I'm just sayin'.
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Sergarr

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2014, 05:24:51 am »

Next version, the conversation window won't even exist. All conversations will be like normal actions, and will take time, and won't break the game flow.

Just wait a week or two...
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Zammer990

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2014, 07:40:41 am »

Next version, the conversation window won't even exist. All conversations will be like normal actions, and will take time, and won't break the game flow.

Just wait a week or two...
...or three

EDIT: the worst imo is bronze colossi and the like:
Bronze Colossus spattereddwarf: ... (slain urist mccannonfodder)
Bronze Colossus spattereddwarf: ... (slain urist mccannonfodderthesecond)
ad infinitum

Is it just sitting there, humming to you for 3 weeks?
« Last Edit: June 29, 2014, 07:43:51 am by Zammer990 »
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Blastbeard

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2014, 12:51:49 pm »


 the worst imo is bronze colossi and the like:
Bronze Colossus spattereddwarf: ... (slain urist mccannonfodder)
Bronze Colossus spattereddwarf: ... (slain urist mccannonfodderthesecond)
ad infinitum

Is it just sitting there, humming to you for 3 weeks?


OH MY VARIOUS AND UNUSUALLY ALIGNED GODS YES.
The first time I ran into that was with a dragon that killed over a hundred people. This started happening and I was like 'Why is this happening it can't even talk how is this happening it can't even talk" and then there was dragonfire everywhere which made it worse.

It's not so much an issue of the conversation window so much as its content. Historical figures just need to learn to shut the hell up about their kill lists is the main concern.
If the conversation window is taken away, will they still brag about their kills in the current fashion? I certainly hope it's not going to be like the wall of combat reports you see after getting knocked down by large groups of fast opponents(/bogeymen). In some ways, that would be just as bad if not worse.

If the problem's a;ready been solved by the coming changes, that's perfect. I just want to go on record saying the way it has been was annoying as balls.
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Helari

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2014, 02:03:02 pm »

Most likely you will have subtitles popping up throughout the fight as the creature keeps bragging but hopefully it wont completely stop you from acting.
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glopso

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2014, 02:35:31 pm »

Maybe the bragging will turn out to be a good thing, taking up action cycles so that the historical figure is vulnerable.
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Cobbler89

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2014, 04:35:40 pm »

It would be like if a boss battle of any other game was interrupted by a cutscene every time you landed a hit.
Maybe we should be worried about the stealth update in the next release -- after all, the two staples of Metal Gear games are stealth action and obsessed characters stopping the game proper to monologue at you... usually about posttraumatic stress, nanotechnology, conspiracy theory, or extremely fuzzy philosophy, none of which are things I want to hear about for more than five minutes on end.

Okay, so I kid about being worried (this is Dwarf Fortress, it can't be that mainstream), but it is worth noting that there are worse things for characters to go on about than their kill list.

Though on the other hand, that also suggests there could be better things. Imagine if Urist McNecromancer had to tell you about his gods, or anything else in their crazy books ("It Must Have Been the Carp!" "Can the Elf Save the World?" "The World Without Death"), or anything else in the in-game mythology, as he sent his zombie army to maul you so he could add your corpse to its ranks.
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Blastbeard

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2014, 04:57:14 pm »

It would be like if a boss battle of any other game was interrupted by a cutscene every time you landed a hit.
Maybe we should be worried about the stealth update in the next release -- after all, the two staples of Metal Gear games are stealth action and obsessed characters stopping the game proper to monologue at you... usually about posttraumatic stress, nanotechnology, conspiracy theory, or extremely fuzzy philosophy, none of which are things I want to hear about for more than five minutes on end.
Actually, I did have metal gear in mind when I put that line in. I can't remember which game, but there's a  point where you get a boss down to half health and you get a cutscene long enough to make you forget you're in the middle of a boss fight. I've encountered megabeast who prattle on long enough to have that same effect. I want the jabberwock's head, not it's life story. It just... Takes something away from it all.
Quote
Okay, so I kid about being worried (this is Dwarf Fortress, it can't be that mainstream), but it is worth noting that there are worse things for characters to go on about than their kill list.

Though on the other hand, that also suggests there could be better things. Imagine if Urist McNecromancer had to tell you about his gods, or anything else in their crazy books ("It Must Have Been the Carp!" "Can the Elf Save the World?" "The World Without Death"), or anything else in the in-game mythology, as he sent his zombie army to maul you so he could add your corpse to its ranks.
Having said I'm here to fight, I'd much rather hear more about an opponent than the same list of people they've killed over and over. The reason why they turned to the dark arts would certainly be better than the necromancer screaming about his one, ONE notable kill, over and over. They do that sometimes, it makes get creative about how I kill them.
"I killed Zafod Onlykill! Prepare to die!"
"I killed Zafod Onlykill! Prepare to die!"
"I killed Zafod Onlykill! Prepare to die!"
"I killed Zafod Onlykill! Prepare to die!"
"I killed Zafod Onlykill! Prepare to d-mmfphgh*used cave spider silk sock in mouth*"
Is gagging targets going to be a thing this release? If we can't take care of the kill bragging, I'll settle for that.
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Bumber

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2014, 05:22:01 pm »

OH MY VARIOUS AND UNUSUALLY ALIGNED GODS YES.
The first time I ran into that was with a dragon that killed over a hundred people. This started happening and I was like 'Why is this happening it can't even talk how is this happening it can't even talk" and then there was dragonfire everywhere which made it worse.
I just assumed they had telepathic powers.
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Neonivek

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2014, 02:28:03 pm »

I don't mind some kill bragging, after all that is somewhat historical and fits the game's epic feel, but yeah they often go on about how they killed some schmoe who brushed his teeth twice a day.
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Blastbeard

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2014, 03:06:57 pm »

The bragging is not so epic when the the offender just keeps doing it over and over and over. If nothing else, there should be some sort of limit how many times a historical figures brags to any other individual. Something simple as a check to see if a player unit has heard the message before would do. If you've heard it at least once, there's no point in hearing it again.
"Has this person heard my list of victims yet? He/she/it has? Well then, there is no point in telling them again. Let's get to the fighting shall we?"
...Said no prolific historical figure ever. Unfortunately.

It's worse when they start bragging while you're sneaking.The can't even see you and they're still reciting their kill list. It's like they're just bellowing their accomplishments to nobody in particular every waking moment. It makes me wonder how bandit underlings can stand to be in the presence of their leader.

Be honest, is a real person who has killed quite a few people and is currently in the process of killing another really going to waste their breath talking to someone who is about to be a corpse, or will they shut up, save their breath, and get the deed done?

Accounts of duels between seasoned fighters almost never entail a mid-battle conversation. Both combatants are too busy figuring out how to survive to shoot the breeze with one another. Even in warfare, historical or modern, nobody wastes time shouting about how many people they've killed or anything irrelevant. It is and always has been battlecries, incoherent screaming, and the occasional order.
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Neonivek

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2014, 06:26:27 pm »

Just let you kill brag. A brag contest.
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Dirst

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2014, 01:59:49 pm »

It's worse when they start bragging while you're sneaking.Thye can't even see you and they're still reciting their kill list. It's like they're just bellowing their accomplishments to nobody in particular every waking moment. It makes me wonder how bandit underlings can stand to be in the presence of their leader.
For some reason this reminds me of when LA's Mayor Villaraigosa was cornered on a subway with journalists he didn't really want to talk to.  He pretended to forget they were there, declared "I love my job!" to no one in particular and started shaking hands with random citizens (or non-citizens, we're talking about LA here).
Accounts of duels between seasoned fighters almost never entail a mid-battle conversation. Both combatants are too busy figuring out how to survive to shoot the breeze with one another. Even in warfare, historical or modern, nobody wastes time shouting about how many people they've killed or anything irrelevant. It is and always has been battlecries, incoherent screaming, and the occasional order.
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Aquillion

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2014, 02:19:38 pm »

What we really need is a thread of ideas for more interesting things for NPCs to shout in combat.

* Taunt the PC with the people who will avenge your death if you die.
* Declare the positions you hold, if you have any.
* Comment on the PC's skill, or lack thereof, maybe even by comparing it to previous people you fought.  ("Your skill with that blade is nothing compared to [person], who died at my hands!")
* Reveal you're the PC's father.

...with some additional checks to keep NPCs from shouting the same things multiple times in the same fight (or within a certain long timeframe, since technically a 'fight' isn't a thing.)

Also, don't have them brag about the entire list, just the most noticeable kill and maybe the total number.  "I am the slayer of Thorin, son of Glorin, King under the Mountain" or "I slew Hakuhei Sabi, the world's greatest swordsman!  What hope do you have against me?" or "I am Zorlock, slayer of a thousand men!" are cool things to shout.  "I killed Urist McRandomDwarf, and Urist McOtherRandomDwarf, and Urist McThirdRandomDwarf..." is not cool.
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Bumber

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Re: The problem with kill bragging
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2014, 10:07:18 pm »

* Taunt the PC with the people who will avenge your death if you die.
* Declare the positions you hold, if you have any.
* Comment on the PC's skill, or lack thereof, maybe even by comparing it to previous people you fought.  ("Your skill with that blade is nothing compared to [person], who died at my hands!")
* Reveal you're the PC's father.
* Claim the PC killed your father; they should prepare to die.
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Reading his name would trigger it. Thinking of him would trigger it. No other circumstances would trigger it- it was strictly related to the concept of Bill Clinton entering the conscious mind.

THE xTROLL FUR SOCKx RUSE WAS A........... DISTACTION        the carp HAVE the wagon

A wizard has turned you into a wagon. This was inevitable (Y/y)?
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