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[Graknorke]

If they're not as bad as Satanists I don't think you have much to worry about. Satanists are pretty benign.

Ineffective is not the same as benign.

I meant benign. I can't find mention of a modern group of Satanists that has beliefs founded in anything particularly nasty. The "Official Church of Satan" seemed pretty callous to other people being more self-centres, but not antagonistic either, and also written weirdly like it was tongue-in-cheek. Not sure what to make of that.
But in general it was pretty much just about indulging in hedonism. I'm not sure how that could be very harmful.

Anyway yes could you tell us what group it is that your friend is in? Talking about Satanism is not really helpful if it's not the problem.

[CaptainMcClellan]

But in general it was pretty much just about indulging in hedonism. I'm not sure how that could be very harmful.

First off, again, abusive ex, twisted ideals, (probably) worse than the main branch. Also, indulging in hedonism is not a particularly fulfilling lifestyle. ( It's also not an "indulgence" if it's being done on a regular basis. ) That said, we're getting way, way off track and this could be argued for hours while making no progress.

Anyway yes could you tell us what group it is that your friend is in? Talking about Satanism is not really helpful if it's not the problem.

I would prefer to reserve comment at this time. If that means you cannot help, so be it. Already, you've at least given me things to consider again. Which is mainly what I needed. I mean, my thoughts only go so far on their own, sometimes I just need people to tell me things I should already know, sometimes I just need criticism on my though patterns, and sometimes I just need people to bounce ideas off of. In time, if the situation seems to be worsening, I may ask for greater advise and divulge more information. I will only do that if the person seems to be becoming unhinged or undergoing drastic behavioral changes or otherwise showing signs that all is not well with her as I fear may happen. The chances of this are slight, she has matured and strengthened over the course of time that I have known her. Still, I await further progress with eager anticipation and will try not to push the issue. Thank you all for your advice.

[Cheeetar]

You have one or more reasons you don't want to reveal which group it is, and it's not out of any sort of worry for her that you withhold that. This makes me feel reticent about being supportive of your desires.

[Vector]

You have one or more reasons you don't want to reveal which group it is, and it's not out of any sort of worry for her that you withhold that. This makes me feel reticent about being supportive of your desires.

Yeah, this.

[CaptainMcClellan]

You have one or more reasons you don't want to reveal which group it is, and it's not out of any sort of worry for her that you withhold that. This makes me feel reticent about being supportive of your desires.

That's fair. Any potential explanations as why I would be doing so then?

[Vector]

You have one or more reasons you don't want to reveal which group it is, and it's not out of any sort of worry for her that you withhold that. This makes me feel reticent about being supportive of your desires.

That's fair. Any potential explanations as why I would be doing so then?

Because you've been behaving in a controlling way and are scared that the end really doesn't justify the means?

[Cheeetar]

You have one or more reasons you don't want to reveal which group it is, and it's not out of any sort of worry for her that you withhold that. This makes me feel reticent about being supportive of your desires.

That's fair. Any potential explanations as why I would be doing so then?

I don't know you, and I can't explain to you why it is that you're not comfortable telling me the truth- I simply know you're not.

[Bauglir]

It's conceivable that you have reason to believe that we'll sympathize more with the group in question than with you, I suppose. If that's the case, consider that you have nothing to lose by sharing.

All the help that people can give without knowing more has already been given. If we disagree with your goal, that advice is still relevant as a good way for people with different perspectives to interact. Furthermore, even if there were something else we could do to help, and you lose access to that advice, it would be coming from people who were withholding that information until they knew they agreed with your aims - in other words, you were never going to get it, anyway.

On the other hand, if we can be straightforward about all this, then there's the potential that additional help is practical, plus you also help motivate people, instead of encouraging them to assume the worst, for the sake of their own moral wellbeing. Remember, too, that Bay12 isn't a hive mind, so even if I find your goals repugnant for whatever reason, there may be somebody else out there who's happy to lend a hand.

[QuakeIV]

Going along with that, I'm also having serious issues imagining how to solve your problem since I know virutally nothing about it.

I mean I guess you are trying to drive some girl from a group/environment you percieve to be toxic, which is okay and stuff.  However we know nothing of the girl and nothing of the group.  Therefore we have no way to tell you how to exert force on the girl, or exert force on the group to get them to reject the girl.  There is not much to work with here information wise, and not much can be done unless someone knows of general techniques to manipulate* any female or any group.

*I use the term manipulate because in my own personal dictionaries you are manipulating someone the instant you try to get them to do something.  It may or may not involve reprehensible methods but its still acting to change something.

[CaptainMcClellan]

It's conceivable that you have reason to believe that we'll sympathize more with the group in question than with you, I suppose. If that's the case, consider that you have nothing to lose by sharing.

All the help that people can give without knowing more has already been given. If we disagree with your goal, that advice is still relevant as a good way for people with different perspectives to interact. Furthermore, even if there were something else we could do to help, and you lose access to that advice, it would be coming from people who were withholding that information until they knew they agreed with your aims - in other words, you were never going to get it, anyway.

On the other hand, if we can be straightforward about all this, then there's the potential that additional help is practical, plus you also help motivate people, instead of encouraging them to assume the worst, for the sake of their own moral wellbeing. Remember, too, that Bay12 isn't a hive mind, so even if I find your goals repugnant for whatever reason, there may be somebody else out there who's happy to lend a hand.

All valid points. Especially the first. However, I don't think that fear is the prime motivator, but that could also be because I'm viewing from a biased perspective. ( Other fears, perhaps... ) At any rate...

I don't doubt that there would be some out there willing to help, at what cost however? Violation of privacy and trust? ( Of at least one individual. ) That, however, is a personal decision that I must make on my own. "Just how much can I trust people to whom I have never spoken?" Still that can, itself, be weighed against questions like "What is the probability, even assuming a malicious intent, that this knowledge can be used to harm me or the other individual in question?"

Going along with that, I'm also having serious issues imagining how to solve your problem since I know virutally nothing about it.

I mean I guess you are trying to drive some girl from a group/environment you percieve to be toxic, which is okay and stuff.  However we know nothing of the girl and nothing of the group.  Therefore we have no way to tell you how to exert force on the girl, or exert force on the group to get them to reject the girl.  There is not much to work with here information wise, and not much can be done unless someone knows of general techniques to manipulate* any female or any group.

*I use the term manipulate because in my own personal dictionaries you are manipulating someone the instant you try to get them to do something.  It may or may not involve reprehensible methods but its still acting to change something.

Again. Valid points. Realize, however, that the collectivity of Bay12 has already helped on this issue ( slightly ) by manipulating me and helping me analyze my tact.

And general techniques are welcome.

Moreover, some aspects of the situation are resolving favorably, some are not. The ones that aren't have to do with her home life and I have no business telling anyone this as it was told to me in confidence.

I will give you this, perhaps as an explanation to why I am trepidatious to share more ( though it seems many of you already suspect, if I am interpreting your subtext correctly ): The person in question is my girlfriend. The last thing I want to do is manipulate her in an abusive way, but new issues have arisen that eclipse and nullify the importance of the original issue I was querying about. That said, these outside strains, beyond my control, are causing her to strongly reconsider whether she even wants to be in a relationship. And I fear that I am harming her just by continuing our current relationship. It's a tricky situation all around... though it shouldn't have been. :/ Still, c'est la vie. I would like to clarify, in case it's not as obvious as I might think, all of these things have arisen since my original post. So... Really it's almost like I would need a new post altogether. And... you can't really advise me while I still restrain myself, but if you don't advise, I have no reason to trust you or discern the validity of your rationale. So... what'll it be? Am I just wasting everyone's time? :?

[Bauglir]

Hm, trust's as good a reason as any. I'll not pry further, but I've got nothing I can offer to actually help out. Good luck to her.

[Vector]

I will give you this, perhaps as an explanation to why I am trepidatious to share more ( though it seems many of you already suspect, if I am interpreting your subtext correctly ): The person in question is my girlfriend.

Yeah, I already figured that out.

And no, I'm not going to give you any "general tips on how to manipulate." Grind your own damn social skills.

[Bauglir]

Oh, right, I should mention, that just based on what you've said, it sounds like you really only should be going with the honesty and let her make her own decisions route. Unless you've got a very compelling argument otherwise (like, "She's becoming a drug smuggler" or some other equally objectively terrible choice), her own autonomy is probably more important than what you want for her.

Sorry, got caught up in accepting that your reasons for not sharing are valid, forgot to reinforce earlier advice as probably the right way to go.

[ChairmanPoo]

"Just how much can I trust people to whom I have never spoken?" Still that can, itself, be weighed against questions like "What is the probability, even assuming a malicious intent, that this knowledge can be used to harm me or the other individual in question?"

..this goes both ways. Why the heck should we trust *you*? What is the probability that you might be using us to harm some other individual?

Furthermore: what's the point in asking for advice from people you don't actually trust enough to tell them the exact nature of the problem?

[alway]

"Just how much can I trust people to whom I have never spoken?" Still that can, itself, be weighed against questions like "What is the probability, even assuming a malicious intent, that this knowledge can be used to harm me or the other individual in question?"

..this goes both ways. Why the heck should we trust *you*? What is the probability that you might be using us to harm some other individual?

Exactly this. What you're asking is "How can I remove a person from a group I see as negative." However, that can extremely easily go either way. Take cults for example. One of their most powerful tools they use on members is exactly this. "How can we remove this member we care about from a group we see as negative?" And so cut off all outside contact and support for this person, leaving only the cult. (And, in fact, mainstream religions do this too; it's just that mainstream religions generally see outside groups less negatively than cults)

It's also very common in domestic abuse cases; the abuser tries to distance the abused from external support groups to ensure they stay the center of attention and support in the abused's life. Which is why domestic abuse is often long-lasting and recurring; because the abused has been cut off from support from anyone else for the duration of the abusive relationship.

This is precisely the reason why people here are extremely reticent to give advice to do so.