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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: [loading grimdark, please wait]  (Read 1049710 times)

nenjin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10350 on: May 16, 2018, 12:21:33 am »

Fixed.
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10351 on: May 16, 2018, 12:26:14 am »

Isn't there an iso-tactical Mechwarrioresque coming out soon too?
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milo christiansen

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10352 on: May 16, 2018, 08:41:23 pm »

The way that guy was playing makes me ill. He goofed over and over and over again, seeming not to realize how the controls work.
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10353 on: May 16, 2018, 10:34:58 pm »

Yeah, I watch CM Valrak's videos because he gets a lot of 40k content previews thrown at him. But I'm not a big fan of the commentary or gameplay.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
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Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Loud Whispers

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10354 on: May 22, 2018, 04:59:41 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
For context: BL are starting a noblebright young adult adventure series set in 40k. The premise inherently tickles my fancy
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Next they'll make a 40k kids colouring book. GW give out their IP like free toilet paper lmao

*EDIT
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I imagine you could do a 40k coming of age story pretty fucking spectacularly without sacrificing an iota of what makes 40k its unique setting. Have the start point be all the kids in a schola progenium, have them all become friends who support one another amidst all the drug addiction, ganger activity, chaos corruption, threat of execution, pressure to exceed their limits - and after they've all succeeded, having all the kids defend their schola against a fucking invasion, have them all split apart to be divided amongst the various institutions of the Imperium; mechanicus, ministorum, administratum, navy, comissiarat, inquisition e.t.c., in a bittersweet goodbye. I'm tempted to write it myself tbh

*EDITx2
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
You know what, a 40k child's book that treats itself as an in-universe child's book would be pretty hilarious too
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 05:53:51 am by Loud Whispers »
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LordBaal

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10355 on: May 22, 2018, 05:46:34 am »

And remember kids, stranger danger, xenos danger, anything outside work and worship of the emperor danger....
Don't let the unfathomable horrors from the warp bit you in your dreams, like for real.
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10356 on: May 22, 2018, 12:21:51 pm »

My mind is full of fuck.

As one commenter I saw put it "I knew they were going to fuck up 40k some how. But this took me by surprise."

I don't understand how someone at GWS thought that Young Adult Adventure is somehow compatible with hatred, authoritarianism, genocide, savage violence, destroying entire planets and killing billions of people, endless war and all the other themes that would horrify parents if they actually knew what they were letting their kids in to.

I guess in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is something else besides war now.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 12:27:12 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10357 on: May 22, 2018, 01:49:06 pm »

My mind is full of fuck.

As one commenter I saw put it "I knew they were going to fuck up 40k some how. But this took me by surprise."

I don't understand how someone at GWS thought that Young Adult Adventure is somehow compatible with hatred, authoritarianism, genocide, savage violence, destroying entire planets and killing billions of people, endless war and all the other themes that would horrify parents if they actually knew what they were letting their kids in to.

I guess in the grim darkness of the 41st millennium, there is something else besides war now.
Pretty clear they don't think they're compatible, they're just willing to water down 40k until it's got "mass appeal," which need not actually be reflected in any form of success whatsoever. Look at how they neutered Fantasy and removed "kid unfriendly" stuff from it so hard, Slaanesh got nuked out of canon. Same thing here, where the kids go on whacky adventures comprised of such characters as a pacifist rogue trader who doesn't use weapons (guns are bad) or a techpriest adept who innovates (punishing creativity is bad), serving helping the Emperor of Mankind (God-Emperor would be controversial) defend against the dreaded villain DR. NECRON THE MAD SCIENTIST, with any notion of sex, violence, disease and death replaced by optimistic daring and ingenious outmaneuvring of dastardly xenos!!!!
All in all, the books are just a symptom of whatever machinations goes on in GW HQ's psyche. The willingness to give IP rights to everyone with no quality control, the willingness to scalp literally anyone to death who dares to take even a semblance of interest in 40k hobbying or media, the need to continue expanding their market in spite of the price walls they place in front of potential new players - all culminating in situations such as this, where a whole team of people at GW envisaged this, approved this and endorsed it, indicating the direction they intend to take. Sanitized Sigmarines replacing the disheveled peasants, Fantasy losing its market share and imploding - 40k's own Sigmarines, all indicate a desire to bring 40k into mainstream profit spotlight, not unlike the Hobbit or Star Wars. I disagree with the notion that GW were going to fuck up 40k, as 40k has been like the Imperium, steadily faring the onslaught of GW's bad decisions each time - and after each victory, nonetheless growing weaker and weaker.

Will 40k die? GW's Dark Age of 40k will probably last a while, but 3rd party content producers cannot be stopped from using the 40k setting in such manners as it always has been. In this manner it's probable that if this direction is taken to its logical conclusion, the future of 40k could be a shallow galaxy full of overpriced shitty mobile games, steam early access dumpware, mass appeal-mass produced fiction & fisher price miniatures, all surrounding an Eye of Terror, full of content creators & 3D printing Chinamen.
That or GW will prove it's not too big to fail. GW's marketing thinking is sound but misdirected - they need kids whose parents have large disposable incomes to invest heavily in 40k for their kids. This isn't going to happen if such suburban parents walk in and see Slaanesh's seven tit's on full display, so 40k needs to be sanitized in order to market to these parents. The mistake here is that it'll be palatable to such parents, but boring to kids, who buy into 40k because it's a grimdark setting quite unlike any other literary universe on the market, so bringing 40k in line with Disney's cinematic universe is taking 40k out of its unique niche and bringing it into competition with every other scifi setting where kids can imagine they're a space hero, instead of a commander overseeing space bugs or a company of guardsman holding the line. It may bring in clueless parents, but it will not have good customer retention with kids, with GW's business model relying on customer retention. The most dangerous thing GW could do to its IP is make it seem lame, turning it into a lame tabletop game about a lame setting.

I think GW has severely underestimated how willing parents are to buy mature content for their kids, as evidenced by the military simulator games infested with cursing 8 year olds; it comes down to the simple power of pester power. Little kids show their adoration for something, their parents are inclined to buy it for them as a treat. Little kids never stop pestering their parents for something, their parents are incentivized to buy it for them as a supplicant gesture for peace. Fascinated by the dark setting unlike many things they've seen, they're sucked into the setting and want more - the usual gateway into the terrible addiction of tabletop gaming.
Things like 40k or Avatar, Legend of Aang show you can have something directed to kids featuring genocide, psychopathy, religious war, conquest, death, sex, all shades of authoritarian rule, endless war and so on - and parents won't actually give a shit, while kids will love the fact that the media is not treating them like brain rotted morons. Kids aren't idiots immured from the concept of suffering, ruined by the knowledge of mortality or sex, hell in the UK education on the holocaust is compulsory in the majority of schools - it's rather bizarre to think that we understand children are mature enough to handle the reality but not the fiction. The kind of parents who get horrified are also the kinds of protective parents who are not going to waste hundreds of pounds on their kids' wargaming, instead directing them to do something more traditionally acceptable, like homework or music lessons.

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10358 on: May 22, 2018, 02:18:11 pm »

I just imagine it's what the fragile and precious children of the noble houses get as reading material. The Imperium of Man doesn't exactly shy away from indoctrinating children from young age. Using more cutesy renditions of the horrors out there for the young nobles of the upper hive.

Telling stories about how little Timmius defeated the scary necron lord through his wits and bravery teaches that he should, in fact, hate the alien and fight them with all his might. Keeping in mind that the upbringing (and thus, what is deemed 'age appropriate material') of some noble scion versus an underhive juvie ganger tends to be rather different.

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Next they'll make a 40k kids colouring book.
Spoiler: About that... (click to show/hide)



In other news, a while ago a new episode of Helsreach was released: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqUSHhWErdY
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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10359 on: May 22, 2018, 02:29:06 pm »

In the grimdark future of the 21st century, 40k is only played by the heirs and heiresses of Russian oligarchs

nenjin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10360 on: May 22, 2018, 02:39:42 pm »

I'd point out that compulsory holocaust education isn't asking kids to cheer for the holocaust. That's the difference between education and entertainment.

I'd have actually appreciated a set of stories featuring young people in the normal 40k universe. That might have actually been interesting, because kids need to ask questions in order to gain understanding that might have resulted in some interesting answers.

This squeeky clean shit though is just banal, and stupid. Mary Sue kids, fine, w/e. But don't set it in the same universe and then take the rules that define that universe and flip them on their head for the sake of making it palatable. The threat of death, corruption, damnation, eternal torment....these are what give 40k its edge. Without that, all you really have is a watered down meme about fascism.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
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Always spaghetti, never forghetti

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10361 on: May 22, 2018, 03:33:01 pm »

I'd point out that compulsory holocaust education isn't asking kids to cheer for the holocaust. That's the difference between education and entertainment.

I'd have actually appreciated a set of stories featuring young people in the normal 40k universe. That might have actually been interesting, because kids need to ask questions in order to gain understanding that might have resulted in some interesting answers.

This squeeky clean shit though is just banal, and stupid. Mary Sue kids, fine, w/e. But don't set it in the same universe and then take the rules that define that universe and flip them on their head for the sake of making it palatable. The threat of death, corruption, damnation, eternal torment....these are what give 40k its edge. Without that, all you really have is a watered down meme about fascism.
Watered down every day until you like it
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LordBaal

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10362 on: May 22, 2018, 06:02:13 pm »

Well in a fuckhige galaxy there are people bound to have perfectly "normal" lives with no violence and family friendly adventures. As pointed out the children of nobles on a plants isolated enough or something might be acceptable.

Basically your regular kids stuff but with 40k tech, terms and the less scary themes. Perhaps even con fronting a forming cult on the academia by some deluled kids without touching the real activities or goals of a cult (like fucking or rotting everything to dead).

A band of kids with a talking grox unmasking a high lord of Terra as Abadon in disguise or stopping a tytanid invasion by winning a chess match with the hive mind would be pushing it too far and I'm sure will drive more people away that draw them in.

Groxi groxi dooo...
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 06:05:40 pm by LordBaal »
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
My ship exploded midflight, but all the shrapnel totally landed on Alpha Centauri before anyone else did.  Bow before me world leaders!

nenjin

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10363 on: May 22, 2018, 06:27:23 pm »

It's just kind of galling that two of their characters are pretty much straight up hereteks/traitors by the universe's own rules, right out of the box. I wonder if they'll even address that part of one character's backstory, if they'll run in to some Imperial Guard officials who give him a watered down version of "time to die a traitor's death." Like, it'll be all 'oooooooooo we're gonna getcha!" in classic YA style villainy, when the reality is at best a firing squad and at worst a long stint in the execrutiator....before the firing squad.

I think that's why, ultimately, this annoys me. Anyone is free to break the rules in 40k. But there are consequences. For the sake of YA adventure though, the actual consequences won't exist or will be so watered down that it becomes unidentifiable as 40k.

I suppose it's what some have always wanted though: a subversive element to Imperial culture that isn't full of the God-Emperor koolaid. I'm guessing they didn't expect it to take this form either though....

Can't wait for the surge of kawaii~ 40k art as well, since it's now officially canon. :X
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 06:30:17 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
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Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Loud Whispers

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Re: WH40K general discussion thread: A comparative biology of Beastmen.
« Reply #10364 on: May 22, 2018, 06:46:44 pm »

Well in a fuckhige galaxy there are people bound to have perfectly "normal" lives with no violence and family friendly adventures. As pointed out the children of nobles on a plants isolated enough or something might be acceptable.

Basically your regular kids stuff but with 40k tech, terms and the less scary themes. Perhaps even con fronting a forming cult on the academia by some deluled kids without touching the real activities or goals of a cult (like fucking or rotting everything to dead).

A band of kids with a talking grox unmasking a high lord of Terra as Abadon in disguise or stopping a tytanid invasion by winning a chess match with the hive mind would be pushing it too far and I'm sure will drive more people away that draw them in.

Groxi groxi dooo...
There is already existing fluff about kids in 40k doing heroic shit on a level superior to most PDF; a Stormtrooper, Commissar and even an Inquisitor's life service may begin as a cadet in the Schola Progenium. The Cadian Whiteshields are entire regiments of youths whose combat training requires active combat service to conclude full induction into the Guard, and may see them deployed off world in a distant corner of the galaxy. Both Space Marines and the Sisters of Battle recruit from children or even their own children, and the donning of power armour, weapons or gene seed modifications are totally apt metaphors for puberty and responsibility. The death worlders - it should be abundantly clear why children on death worlds are inherently capable. And who the hell wouldn't want to see hive gangers pulling hi-jinks, barely one step ahead of the Arbites who don't really focus their efforts on them because they've got bigger concerns? Talks of noble children bely that noble children would have to be aware of their own siblings and much older relatives trying to see them eliminated and their position inherited, in a series that would more resemble A Series of Unfortunate Events than a boring indulgence in trite squabbles. There's so many ways GW could go about this, you just need to have respect for the intelligence of your audience and respect for the character of your setting.

It'd be pretty easy to fit in noble bright light heartedness concealing the grimdarkness under the veil of unrelenting childhood innocence and naivety. Take the current one - I'd scale back the roles, so instead of rogue traders, sanctioned psykers, mechanicus adepts and all such high ranking or technically specialized roles being represented by kids, make them fairly ordinary hive worlder kids with ordinary professions. All the kids the book series has made could not survive the roles they have been given in universe, but as ordinary kids, yeah they can still afford naivety.
Instead of having the kids battle an awakened necron menace unironically using toys, here me out - imagine if you had a gang of innocent kids investigate the glowing green thing, the mysterious silver skeleton, akin to The Lost Boys or Scooby Doo. The necron warrior in question has malfunctioned and awakened before every other entity in its tomb, and is now wandering aimlessly through a scrapyard of their hive, a scrapyard which houses their secret clubhouse. Cue the warrior trying to flay them with its gauss rifle or monomolecular blade, with the kids just barely dodging and escaping, unaware of just how dangerous their situation is owing to childish imagined invincibility. When described in the fiction, it'll just be talking about how the glowing green rifle left clean gouges in the wall behind them. Through brave daring, clever improvision, jolly cooperation and brutal cunning, the kids use friendship - toys - tools - improvised shenanigens, rather alike Home Alone to defeat the Necron. Happy they have won, they celebrate in the clubhouse, only to be terrified when they discover it reassembled itself and is attacking again. They finally defeat it using high powered machinery they are clearly too young to operate, chucking the necron warrior into a furnace or grinder or something. Cue some authority figure showing up, flashing a Rosarius, praising the kids and paying for their scholarship to the Schola Progenium, with the kids completely unaware that they just alerted the authorities to the Necron tomb beneath the Hive right before an imminent awakening, allowing for an evacuation to be prepared. Play it like a dual narrative, where someone who doesn't get 40k reads it and reads a legitimate whacky childish adventure, while someone who does get 40k gets the undertones of 40k in the story, while someone who reads it to get into 40k will reappreciate all the subtleties they missed when first reading it and comprehend the significance of ordinary children defeating a war machine older than Earth
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