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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: from Tyran's heart I stab at thee.  (Read 1044682 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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I would have the rub be something along the lines of it being re-done in black at some point, or very heavily tarnished.
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pisskop

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Ive come to the conclusion that while 'ultra' marines sounds really cheesy, it fits them perfectly. They really are that special mary sue grade of cheese
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Ive come to the conclusion that while 'ultra' marines sounds really cheesy, it fits them perfectly. They really are that special mary sue grade of cheese

All work and no play makes Marneus Augustus Calgar an extremely competent and efficient Chapter Master.
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This conversation is getting disturbing fast, disturbingly erotic.

nenjin

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To be honest I've read so much 40k that all Space Marines are starting to blur together for me. Sometimes it seems like the best you get is a chapter with an oft-repeated slogan (Vulkan Lives, Theoretical and Practical, Laugh While You Kill, Viking Dialog) and a battle cry. While I generally dislike Space Wolves at the table because of their long history of cheese, I think I enjoy reading about them more than others because they're one of the few chapters where they actually have a world view that makes them different than other chapters. (If the author isn't just a hack, that is.) I feel like those subtleties were better expressed pre-2000 than they are these days. Or maybe I've just been reading too much Horus Heresy lately where it seems like every Black Library author drank too deeply of the Space Opera Koolaid, and every Space Marine talks and acts like they have a stick driven up their arse.

Like I just read The Path of Heaven recently and even there, they managed to take the White Scars (who I thought were written decently unique in their outlook in Scars) to sounding like damn near every other Loyalist legion out there. I guess I have to acknowledge the "ornery as fuck" character of the Iron Hands but it's not a subtle or artfully crafted thing most of the time.

While Traitor Legions can also be boiled down to pretty standard tropes (nipple twisting hedonists, ZerkyMcZerkerson, Sorcerers, Dudes In Black Armor And Spikes, Siege Guns and Bad Attitudes, etc.....) at least they stand out from each other compared to Loyalists.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 08:18:49 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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How will I cheese now assholes?
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pisskop

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Im finding a lot of the SMs are just a little bit unfluffed.

But then again I havent read most of the books or played the tabletop.


I do find the daemons are more likeable since they have some kind of personality.  In general, plot-relevant demons are more interesting than the various Chapter Master protagonists.

Plus, I now have an image of tzeench as a Turtle with tentacles.  Thats cool, like Links Awakening Turtle.

How come Ive yet to see any tzeenchian demons in the HH books?  Unless I missed a subtle one.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 04:39:07 pm by pisskop »
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Pisskop's Reblancing Mod - A C:DDA Mod to make life a little (lot) more brutal!
drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.
PKs DF Mod!

Tack

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-snip-
Which category does Gabriel Seth and the Flesh Tearers fit into?
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nenjin

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Fair enough, they do take a different tact than most Space Marines. As a Blood Angels fan though, I may have a slighty biased opinion. I've seen them written decently (although maybe not as interesting.) James Swallow is the worst sometimes and I regret the Blood Angels are "his" to write for. What sometimes get me about the Flesh Tearers is being contrarian is their keynote feature. The HH set up that since Amit was just a disagreeable bastard, that being Negative Nancies is now part of their culture, the whole "loyal opposition" thing. It stands out but it doesn't necessarily make them interesting to me. Like, because writers dig the Space Viking theme so much they've generated a lot of material for Space Wolves that they can draw on for inspiration to inform both individual traits of Space Wolves and attitudes the Chapter as a whole has as well. There's a richness there that is totally absent from a lot of other chapters.

For example, Blood Angels hail from Baal Secundus and it's a rad-wasted desert world and giant radioactive scorpions and shit. It informs the Blood Angels to the degree that they started humble and then became elevated to god-like statuesqe beauty and grace. And so they have a more grounded perspective on the posthuman condition because they empathize with humanity more than a lot of chapters, and so they take a more noble stance.

Now staple a "dark, bestial secret" to that and the general characteristic of the Blood Angels is noble, angelic, tragic figures. But that's pretty much the end of it. So within that total sphere of ideas and inspirations, you end up with a handful of archetypes.

See, when you get a Space Wolf character who actually cares sincerely about human life and is thoughtful and observational things, maybe is a little soft, that's unique given what Space Wolf culture is usually like. It's a character you can remember for their habits and beliefs. Compare that to Ultramarine #996 who, like the rest, is duty bound, intelligent, articulate, progressive, honorable, a master tactician, who tend to get real mad when things don't go their way.

The most common way I've seen authors try and inject some personality into Space Marines is to always set up one guy as the "bad guy" within a chapter. One guy who is just kind of an asshole or arrogant. If you're lucky they've got at least a believable motivation for being so, but often they're just written to be as unlikable as possible (within the context of a Space Marine chapter) so the main character/hero Marine stands out and looks better by comparison.

I guess for an IP that pumps out this much fiction, it's inevitable that a lot of it is just going to hammer on the same tropes for the most part, since they're so well established. It's just a disappointment sometimes, and why I think Space Marines bore the shit out of people, because writers do so little with the ideas sometimes, and fail to really put themselves in the shoes of a posthuman and then work that idea from different angles within each chapter's history/context.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2016, 05:08:57 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Tack

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There's a Grey Knight in the grey knights omnibus who has doubts Not really he was just pretending

But yeah, I also am a big fan of Space Wolves in the fluff and not on the table, and I'll be honest, it's entirely for the cliche reason that GW went too far on the 'wolf-wolf-wolf' thing.
The whole Norse theme seems to have been completely undercut in the recent codex canon stuff.
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Sentience, Endurance, and Thumbs: The Trifector of a Superpredator.
Yeah, he's a banned spammer. Normally we'd delete this thread too, but people were having too much fun with it by the time we got here.

MetalSlimeHunt

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I think the loyalists may be somewhat written into a corner. They all end up as Ultramarine-copying ubermensch without a thought in sight because anything else unveils the fact that a lot of them would be on the verge of killing each other like traitors if allowed to have character. Such as the Salamanders literally punching out the Chapter Master of the Marines Malevolent (an admittedly extreme combination).
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
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Kot

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Quote from: nenjin
Compare that to Ultramarine #996 who, like the rest, is duty bound, intelligent, articulate, progressive, honorable, a master tactician, who tend to get real mad when things don't go their way.
Kek'd.

Also, thinking that Marines can't have bad traits while still being the good dudes and so on is a trap that a lot of writers fall into.
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MrRoboto75

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Ah, the space wolves.

Wolfclaws riding wolfbikes into battle, shooting wolfbolts out of their wolfbolters at the enemies of the wolf


wolfwolfwolfwolfwolfwolfwolfwolfwolf
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pisskop

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they also have wolf pelts and wolf familiars and howl like wolves and keep werewulfen around as shock troops
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Pisskop's Reblancing Mod - A C:DDA Mod to make life a little (lot) more brutal!
drealmerz7 - pk was supreme pick for traitor too I think, and because of how it all is and pk is he is just feeding into the trollfucking so well.
PKs DF Mod!

Kot

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Yip!
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nenjin

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Quote
Kek'd.

The Immortal Meme Emperor.

When it comes to Space Marines, I think a lot of BL authors just forgot "Show; Don't Tell" a long time ago.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Andres

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I don't know if I asked this before, but does the Imperium have an apparatus where they mass-mind read entire planets?
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All fanfics are heresy, each and every one, especially the shipping ones. Those are by far the worst.
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