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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Man. I just wanna' know what happens when a mekboy decides to make a tau nice and orky by way of gubbins, and succeeds without killing the tau.

You can't make dem blue gits Orky, ya grech! Dey ain't even Orks!

Grog, sum meks, me swear.

[Frumple]

Deyz orks if I sez they is and I 'it 'em hard enough with this here sparky whatsit! Can make orky anyting iz please iffin' dey don't run 'way fast enuff. The ones that don't jus squish, anyway.

[NullForceOmega]

Dude, I can accept that guardsmen are shit at melee USUALLY and when compared to, lets say, Astrates, but as bad as Fire Warriors? That is one of gravest insults I ever heard in this thread.

Dude, I've got bad news for you, Vior'la Sept are exactly as good as rank and file IG in melee combat, and still have better armor.

[Rolepgeek]

Fun fact: Against orks, a given number of Fire Warriors will inflict exactly the same number of casualties on average as an equivalent number of guardsmen. Fire Warriors are also marginally more likely to survive thanks to better armor, defensive grenades, and their overwatch fire is more likely to be effective.

[Tack]

I would like MetalSlimeHunt to join in melee combat against, say, a bear, and then make his claims.

[sprinkled chariot]

Dude, I can accept that guardsmen are shit at melee USUALLY and when compared to, lets say, Astrates, but as bad as Fire Warriors? That is one of gravest insults I ever heard in this thread.

Dude, I've got bad news for you, Vior'la Sept are exactly as good as rank and file IG in melee combat, and still have better armor.

But there are also catachans and deathkorps.

[NullForceOmega]

The best Tau melee stats still exceed the baseline IG, that is the entire point here.

[Andres]

Yeah, well you send guardsmen to fight orks in melee and tell me how that works out for you. They will get the first hit in.

Shows how much you know. A diligent reader of the Regimental Standard will know that an ork stands no chance against the average well-trained guardsman in melee combat. Even better, defeating one of them is likely to make the others rout in abject fear of your skill with the combat knife.

[Tack]

The best Tau melee stats still exceed the baseline IG, that is the entire point here.

Do they though? Crisis suits are still WS2 iirc.

[Kot]

The best Tau melee stats still exceed the baseline IG, that is the entire point here.

The absolute best Tau melee stats exceed the almost worst IG melee stats. Cool.
Also, isin't that where the Farsight is from? I would guess the Tau equivalent of Death World would indeed teach Tau a lesson or two about life, but that still doesn't change the fact they, as a whole, are much, MUCH, MUUUUUUUUUCH worse than humans as a whole in melee. Also, fuck, stop going by tabletop stats, they're "balanced" and not nescessarily making sense.

[LordBaal]

The best Tau melee stats still exceed the baseline IG, that is the entire point here.

The absolute best Tau melee stats exceed the almost worst IG melee stats. Cool.
Also, isin't that where the Farsight is from? I would guess the Tau equivalent of Death World would indeed teach Tau a lesson or two about life, but that still doesn't change the fact they, as a whole, are much, MUCH, MUUUUUUUUUCH worse than humans as a whole in melee. Also, fuck, stop going by tabletop stats, they're "balanced" and not nescessarily making sense.

But Kot, and you know I'm balls to the wall imperial as you do, the tabletop is a good point of reference. Also the lore states (or used to at least, don't know if GW changed that too) that while the average tau is weaker than the average human, the firewarriors are not average and are more muscular than the norm, while His Most Holly Imperial Guard sometimes do left a lot to desire.

Firewarriors do have that bonding rite and some melee training, they are just not expected to engage in it ever, just like most modern real life military.

[Kot]

That's what I am saying too:

As for Tau and melee, there are few points.
First of all, Tau are in fact, in general, weaker psychically and have slower reaction speed than humans and Fire Warriors only overcome it by rigurous training and thanks to thousands of years of eugenics. So, Fire Warrior is an equivalent of a human Guardsman, which... isin't really that big achievment for a human. Humans can still be much, much stronger, while Fire Warriors are on their peak and yet they might have slightly worse reflexes.
Their eyesight is generally good but their pupils do not dilate, giving poorer depth perception and it takes them longer time to focus, so they automatically basically can't see shit in close combat. The high-tech super helmets do not really help, because they make all the downsides more down, though they do let them be better at range, which is... not bad, for a Tau.
Tau do not really have melee weaponry. Before Ethereals came they fought each other with melee and proably some kinds of bows, so they now think they're barbaric and a reminder of their violent (Tau were RIDICULOUSLY hostile fucks back then, possibly on par with Orks, even) past. And when they do, they're mostly ritual weapons - the bonding knives the squad leaders have are technically working weapons but using them in close combat with enemy and risking breaking it is... putting the honour of not only the leader in question but the whole squad at stake, which is something unthinkable for them. The Ethereals are obviously extempt because, while they do not really fight at all (the one time they did they all died and we got Farsight Enclaves), Tau are mind-boggling hypocrites who will accept anything they normally disagree with as long as the Ethereals do it.

Rollpgeek Theorm, which states that the Ethereals are exempt not because of their status but because of the artistic grace and skill of honor blade combat.

This.

I cannot stop laughing condescendingly.

Also, I guess a lot also depends on what Guardsman we are talking here. Remember that a lot of them come from Hive Worlds or so, where punching someone to death is an required skill to survive. Also, if the regiment puts at least minor focus on melee (let's say Death Korps (which is actually represented on tabletop, IIRC) or Armageddon Ork Hunters (I mean, those dudes go hand-to-hand with Orks, they're miniature Sly Marbos) or basically whoever you could see on art with a sword) then Tau suck when compared to them. As for the regular Cadian-style dude from backwater agri-world then... yes, Tau Fire Warrior might be as good as him, but that's not really insulting to the Guardsman, after all, he is as good as the most elite of elites super champion of the ninjas Fire Warrior.

[Tack]

No. Tabletop stats are the one true denominator and I will defend them with twice the vigor you seem to show for human supremacy.

All writing is canon but not necessarily true.
Stats are canon and ALWAYS true.

[NullForceOmega]

Also, I guess a lot also depends on what Guardsman we are talking here. Remember that a lot of them come from Hive Worlds or so, where punching someone to death is an required skill to survive. Also, if the regiment puts at least minor focus on melee (let's say Death Korps (which is actually represented on tabletop, IIRC) or Armageddon Ork Hunters (I mean, those dudes go hand-to-hand with Orks, they're miniature Sly Marbos) or basically whoever you could see on art with a sword) then Tau suck when compared to them. As for the regular Cadian-style dude from backwater agri-world then... yes, Tau Fire Warrior might be as good as him, but that's not really insulting to the Guardsman, after all, he is as good as the most elite of elites super champion of the ninjas Fire Warrior.

You seem to misunderstand Kot, every single fire warrior from Vior'la (and all of its successor worlds, BTW), one of the Tau core sept worlds, is superior to basic line infantry of the Empire.  These are not some super elite special forces unit, they are line infantry who will not hesitate to fuck someone up close in.  It is not a matter of physical differences here, it is purely training doctrine.  Not even open to interpretation, straight up flat out how they are presented by GW.

[Kot]

You seem to misunderstand Kot, every single fire warrior from Vior'la (and all of its successor worlds, BTW), one of the Tau core sept worlds, is superior to basic line infantry of the Empire.  These are not some super elite special forces unit, they are line infantry who will not hesitate to fuck someone up close in.  It is not a matter of physical differences here, it is purely training doctrine.  Not even open to interpretation, straight up flat out how they are presented by GW.

You forgot something in your post.

Spoiler: 100000000000000 times folded Tau ritual knives (click to show/hide)

That’s it. I’m sick of all this “Space Marine supersoldier” bullshit that’s going on in 40k right now. Fire Warriors deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I’m talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine Fire Warrior in Kel'shan for 2,400,000 Tau'ler (that’s about 1000 Thrones) and have been practicing with him for almost 2 years now. I can even slaughter an entire chapter worth of Terminators with the way of Fire Warrior. Fire Caste drill sergeants spend years training a single Fire Warrior and practice him up to a million times to create the finest soldiers known to the universe.

Fire Warriors are thrice as strong as Orks and thrice as adaptable as Tyranids for that matter too. Anything an Exarch can do, a Fire Warrior can do it better. I’m pretty sure a Fire Warrior could easily cut a Demon Prince Primarch into thousands pieces under in 10 seconds with the simplest of his gear: the knife.

Ever wonder why the. Imperium of Man never bothered conquering the Eastern Fringe? That’s right, they were too scared to fight the Greater Good and its Fire Warriors of destruction. Even in The Damocles Crusade, Imperial Guardsmen targeted the Fire Warriors with artillery barrage first because their combat power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Fire. Warriors are simply the best soldiers that the Galaxy has ever seen, and thus, require better stats. Here is the stat block I propose for Fire Warriors:
And They Shall Know No Fear
Points/model 8
WS 5 BS 10 S 4 T 4 W 1 I 4 L 9 SV 3+

Now that seems a lot more representative of the fighting power of Fire Warriors in real life, don’t you think? tl;dr = Fire warriors stronk, imperial piggu go home, Nids can't adapt as fast as us

But seriously, eh, not really. First of all, if we're saying that every single Fire Warrior from certain Tau Sept (which totally doesn't make them unique snowflakes amongst the other Tau) is superior to basic line infantry (what is even basic line infantry in Balkan states?) of the IMPERIUM, then we could take an example of Imperial Guard regiment from any planet to see if they're better at melee than basic line infantry of Tau or even those Vior'la guys... so, let's embark on a magical adventure:
Catachans? They're fucking RAMBOS IN SPACE. Tallarns? Swords are even a major part of their culture, they proably sleep with them tucked between their legs. Death Korpsmen? TANKS SPOTTED, AFFIX BAYONEEEETS! Armageddon Ork Hunters? Those guys literally go toff to teeth with Orks... and win. Kanak Skull Takers or Brontian Longknives? God Emperor, they usually have more knives, axes and other melee weapons on themselves than charges in their Lasguns. Tanith First-and-Only? Stealthy fucks that will shank you with their Straight Silvers before you can even notice. Cadian Kasrkins? Tau should thank their Greater Good that Eye of Terror is on the other side of Galaxy so they never met. Attilan Rough Riders or Pyrans or Death Korps Rough Riders, Brimlocks or Vitrians or ANY ROUGH RIDERS? Getting a face full of explosive spear counts as melee. Elysians? They kill people like Mario does, by jumping on them. Valhallans? Massed Soviet bayonet charges. Vostroyans? Going to cut you up with expensive-as-fuck heirloom sabres. Maccabians? HEADBUTTS. Scintillians and Mordians? THEY LIVE IN AGE OF 18TH CENTURY WARFARE, HALF OF THEIR TRAINING IS BAYONETS. Mordants or Savlars? THEY'RE RIPPED OUT OF MAD MAX. Harakoni Warhawks? THEY'RE ELYSIANS BUT TWICE AS BIG AND ANGRY. Finreht Higlanders or Drookian Fenguard? CLAYMORES FOR FREEDOOOOOOOOOOOM! Athonian Tunnel Rats or Luggnum Sewer Rats? They would feel at home in Vietnam tunnels. Praetorian Guard? THIN RED LINE.
And those aren't super elite special forces units, those are regular guardsmen from their respective regiments that are completly regular, it's just that Tau have one sept that is half-not-shit at melee while Imperium has thousands upon thousands of worlds where everyone could rip your head off with the spine still attached, using only a dull spoon.

Not even open to interpretation, straight up flat out how they are presented by GW.

Blueberry propaganda.