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[Kot]

Too late, Exterminatus inbound on your position.
And you can't apologize for heresy anyway.

[NullForceOmega]

As if I care.

Now, do you want to continue talking about the game?

[Tack]

Let's face it, it's a story with a long-ass history. It'd be like people trying to make Grimdark outta Discworld. It's gonna have some flaws.

[NullForceOmega]

That is certainly true, the sheer amount of material that has been added and retconned over the years has made it into an amusing Frankenstein's monster.

[Kot]

As if I care.

Now, do you want to continue talking about the game?

Aren't we? Oh, wait, I'm sorry, you don't think the lore is worth anything so we totally should only talk about tabletop rollplaying.

It'd be like people trying to make Grimdark outta Discworld.

I'm pretty sure that it has been done. Also, there's always Discworld Noir, not the same, but...

That is certainly true, the sheer amount of material that has been added and retconned over the years has made it into an amusing Frankenstein's monster.

Wh40k lore is beautiful and perfect and you're just a heretic for not worshipping it. It's not like it has been violently violated by numerous people shaping it in the way they like and going deep into Grimderp territories.

[NullForceOmega]

kot, if you seriously think that trying to drown out dissenting opinions with mindless 'fer da empruh' lines is discussing the lore, then I fail to see how any conversation can occur.

Here's a talking point for you:  The whole setting can only exist if every single entity involved makes the worst possible decision every single time a decision has to be made.  This is not only bad writing, it is stupid, I am willing to accept that there can be only war, as long as there is actually a viable reason for it.  Thus the Necrons and Tyrannids are good examples, and the Orks as well, but everything else is just plain mindless.

[KingofstarrySkies]

Spoiler: most people in this thread care more about lore than gameplay from what I've gathered. Personally I don't give a single shit about the tabletop, and find the lore interesting.

[LordBaal]

Keep it coming, I'm reporting every single one of you for heresy with the nearest commissar I find.

[Kot]

kot, if you seriously think that trying to drown out dissenting opinions with mindless 'fer da empruh' lines is discussing the lore, then I fail to see how any conversation can occur.

Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of how LOYALIST I am.

Here's a talking point for you:  The whole setting can only exist if every single entity involved makes the worst possible decision every single time a decision has to be made.  This is not only bad writing, it is stupid, I am willing to accept that there can be only war, as long as there is actually a viable reason for it.  Thus the Necrons and Tyrannids are good examples, and the Orks as well, but everything else is just plain mindless.

Uh, what? I mean, okay, a lot of of people in WH40k make bad decisions, but usually the main ones are pretty well explained and sometimes they actually make good ones. I'm quite a bit confused because I can't think of any major war-starting decision that doesn't seem at least acceptable without hindsight, and the examples you provided are proably the most... "random" ones (maybe except Necrons, but they hate life because they themselves lost it and whatnot), like... Orks go to war because Orks go to war and they don't have any reasons to do so, they just are like this, and Tyranids basically came out of nowhere, we know next to nothing about them except that they want to eat whole Galaxy.

Keep it coming, I'm reporting every single one of you for heresy with the nearest commissar I find.

Spoiler: Shooo! (click to show/hide)

[NullForceOmega]

Yes, you're right, I don't really know what's got me up in arms this time.

I'll just step back out.

As for kot's multi-quoting:

1. Loyalty without reason is stupidity.
2. The very assumption of it being impossible to coexist with other entities capable of reason is without merit.  The Necron, Tyrannids, and Orks are good examples of why 'only war' exists in the setting is that they cannot be reasoned with at all.

[KingofstarrySkies]

I like to think Orks kill people as a compliment. They don't see death as we see it and their highest honor to give is to kill a motherfucker.

[NullForceOmega]

Now you see, that is something I like.  Orks love to fight, and killing an opponent is by far the highest expression of that mentality.

[sprinkled chariot]

After dark age of technology, the worlds which moved back to medieval state and treated psykers as witches and fuel for fires had much less lol demons problems then advanced worlds.
Getting rid of psykers kinda works.

[Kot]

2. The very assumption of it being impossible to coexist with other entities capable of reason is without merit.  The Necron, Tyrannids, and Orks are good examples of why 'only war' exists in the setting is that they cannot be reasoned with at all.

It's actually... ugh...
First of all, at least in more recent fluff, Necrons can totally be reasoned with and they actually have personalities, but basically they all are so huge plasteel dicks they just kill people for kicks. Their whole existence is actually based on one of oldest (we're talking like millions of years before humanity) stupid and bad decision in Warhammer universe, when they decided that they're jealous of Old Ones and Eldar and so on, since Necrons back then were basically edgy shitlords crying on their own planet getting slowly killed by the radiation. So they took those C'Tan guys, put them into huge bodies of living metal because WHY NOT, got their asses handed to them and started worshipping said C'Tan because WHY NOT, and then themselves got turned into bodies of living metal because WHY NOT, and then they started the whole War in Heaven because WHY NOT, which basically was the sole reason for all the retarded Chaos fuckery in the whole universe, ending with Old Ones also creating Orks to combat Necrons and not giving them a killswitch, all of this because WHY NOT and WHAT AT WORST COULD HAPPEN. Not to mention that mid-War in Heaven C'Tan started to fight each other despite losing heavily to Old Ones, Eldar and Orks because WHY NOT.
And Tyranids appeared out of nowhere because WHY NOT.

Like, okay, most of this stuff is actually pretty solid, which is why I don't understand what pieces you claim are worst decisions and lack of reason for anything, when the stuff you call being actually okay is exactly what you said, worst decisions for no reason at all. Like, point me at something. What seems without reason to you? Horus Heresy, the most explained on event in whole Wh40k universe?

Now you see, that is something I like.  Orks love to fight, and killing an opponent is by far the highest expression of that mentality.

Eh, fighting with you and actually letting you live through it (they aren't going to make it easy though) is the highest expression, since if you die to them, you're worse than them in the end. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and Yarrick, go figure, though Ghazghkull itself is pretty special, as it's one of few Orks that can speak High Gothic flawlessly.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

2. The very assumption of it being impossible to coexist with other entities capable of reason is without merit.  The Necron, Tyrannids, and Orks are good examples of why 'only war' exists in the setting is that they cannot be reasoned with at all.

It's actually... ugh...
First of all, at least in more recent fluff, Necrons can totally be reasoned with and they actually have personalities, but basically they all are so huge plasteel dicks they just kill people for kicks. Their whole existence is actually based on one of oldest (we're talking like millions of years before humanity) stupid and bad decision in Warhammer universe, when they decided that they're jealous of Old Ones and Eldar and so on, since Necrons back then were basically edgy shitlords crying on their own planet getting slowly killed by the radiation. So they took those C'Tan guys, put them into huge bodies of living metal because WHY NOT, got their asses handed to them and started worshipping said C'Tan because WHY NOT, and then themselves got turned into bodies of living metal because WHY NOT, and then they started the whole War in Heaven because WHY NOT, which basically was the sole reason for all the retarded Chaos fuckery in the whole universe, ending with Old Ones also creating Orks to combat Necrons and not giving them a killswitch, all of this because WHY NOT and WHAT AT WORST COULD HAPPEN. Not to mention that mid-War in Heaven C'Tan started to fight each other despite losing heavily to Old Ones, Eldar and Orks because WHY NOT.
And Tyranids appeared out of nowhere because WHY NOT.

Like, okay, most of this stuff is actually pretty solid, which is why I don't understand what pieces you claim are worst decisions and lack of reason for anything, when the stuff you call being actually okay is exactly what you said, worst decisions for no reason at all. Like, point me at something. What seems without reason to you? Horus Heresy, the most explained on event in whole Wh40k universe?

Now you see, that is something I like.  Orks love to fight, and killing an opponent is by far the highest expression of that mentality.

Eh, fighting with you and actually letting you live through it (they aren't going to make it easy though) is the highest expression, since if you die to them, you're worse than them in the end. Ghazghkull Mag Uruk Thraka and Yarrick, go figure, though Ghazghkull itself is pretty special, as it's one of few Orks that can speak High Gothic flawlessly.

Having semi-followed this... argument? For the last three pages, I can reliably say that I don't understand what the dealio is here. ALSO, the Necrons' retconning has been some of the worst in 40k in my opinion, their original goal of harvesting sentient life was much more fun.