Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[LordBaal]

Oh then please enlighten me how in the name of the emprah statistics work out? And from where you are going to replenish all those countless numbers of ships and men lost every single time even on regular patrol duties, let alone a full scale war?

EDIT: Ignore it, I see you have moved out from the issue thankfully.

[Radio Controlled]

Even if nothing else came from it, at least now we can look forward to deliciously weird 40K lore from days long gone by MSH.

[Tack]

Guys that's pages ago.
Leave the poor man be.

Also, Pertuarbo's legion isn't "just made for war" as they're pretty awesome builders.
As seen by that big ol' cage they trapped Lorgar in.
Or was it Rogal Dorn? Can't remember my loyalists too well.

[Bohandas]

Someone's drinking the Imperial Kool Aide. It's confirmed that the 'they died in battle' story was just the Emps propaganda. He executed the surviving thunder warriors after Ararat.

And yet, there was still a living Thunder Warrior long, long after Ararat. Did the Emperor just ignore this one Thunder Warrior? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's evidence to contradict your assertion. As TempAcc points out.

According to the wiki it's because the imperial forces mistakenly believed that he'd been killed with the rest of them. Sort of like Rattleballs from Adventure Time.

Lorgar and Horus didn't have genetic flaws, only the circumstances and events from the universe.

I thought it was pretty common belief that personality flaws in the primarchs are still genetic flaws, one way or another. Like even if Lorgar hadn't landed on Colchis, or been affected by the Warp, he'd still be a God-Botherer because it's literally in his DNA to be so.

Lorgar didn't really have much in the way of personality flaws either, or at least not any that weren't corrected and eliminated by the burning of Monarchia. He's one of the most decent guys in the 40k universe; and certainly the most decent guy out of all of the primarchs.

[Digital Hellhound]

Guys that's pages ago.
Leave the poor man be.

Also, Pertuarbo's legion isn't "just made for war" as they're pretty awesome builders.
As seen by that big ol' cage they trapped Lorgar in.
Or was it Rogal Dorn? Can't remember my loyalists too well.

I'm reading Angel Exterminatus right now, and dude's got designs for all kinds of arenas, amphitheaters, palaces, etc. sitting around. The rest of the Iron Warriors seem to enjoy just building stuff, too. I've always gotten the impression Perturabo just wanted to build nice things and was super bitter for being forced to fight unglorious wars. There's a lot of the 'we're warriors, what would we do after the Crusade' stuff among HH marines, but honestly, Perturabo and his sons would just be relieved. Official Imperial architects go!

Perty's an interesting primarch anyway. Poor guy is just asocial and has basically no emotional bond with his troops. They should've just let him build fancy buildings on compliant worlds for the Crusade.

[TempAcc]

Lorgar was/is also surprisingly badass, for a preacher. He beat one of the strongest bloodthirsters single handely, was the catalyst for making Horus fall to chaos (in one of the horus heresy novels, when Horus tries to stop him from doing something, he uses his psyker powers to force goddamn horus to unhand him, and succeeds), and schemed so hard he sent his word bearers back in time to set up everything for the corruption of the primarchs. Its really too bad he hasn't done anything after he became an actual daemon. He's probably the most interesting primarch overall, despite being a crazy preacher who's willing to deliver all of humanity to chaos because he believes thats the best for humanity, somehow.

[Loud Whispers]

Lorgar is represents the facet of humanity that doesn't just believe in devoting themselves in some higher cause, Lorgar is the facet of humanity that needs to do so. So when Emps is like 'yeah nah stop fucking around and making cathedrals, make dorf forts' Lorgar is left needing to search for a new higher cause to devote himself to. Lorgar is bretty cool Primarch all things considered.

[nenjin]

Someone's drinking the Imperial Kool Aide. It's confirmed that the 'they died in battle' story was just the Emps propaganda. He executed the surviving thunder warriors after Ararat.

And yet, there was still a living Thunder Warrior long, long after Ararat. Did the Emperor just ignore this one Thunder Warrior? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's evidence to contradict your assertion. As TempAcc points out.

According to the wiki it's because the imperial forces mistakenly believed that he'd been killed with the rest of them. Sort of like Rattleballs from Adventure Time.

Lorgar and Horus didn't have genetic flaws, only the circumstances and events from the universe.

I thought it was pretty common belief that personality flaws in the primarchs are still genetic flaws, one way or another. Like even if Lorgar hadn't landed on Colchis, or been affected by the Warp, he'd still be a God-Botherer because it's literally in his DNA to be so.

and certainly the most decent guy out of all of the primarchs.

Nicer than Sanguinius? Mmmm no. Also, heresy detected. Lorgar turns into a sadistic fuck later.

[TempAcc]

:v yea lorgar and the world bearers got corrupted for real, and lorgar seems to have given up on doing anything good for humanity, even in his own views. The word bearers use cultists pretty much as cannon fodder, making them even worse then the alpha legion, who actualy treats cultists as real agents of chaos and whatnot. Doesnt stop lorgar from still being the most interesting of the primarchs, from what was written about him. Sanguinus is still space jesus though.

[Bohandas]

He's probably the most interesting primarch overall, despite being a crazy preacher who's willing to deliver all of humanity to chaos because he believes thats the best for humanity, somehow.

Really the only difference between chaos and the imperium is that chaos has several *fun* soul-devouring monsters rather than one stodgy and overly serious soul-devouring monster

Lorgar is represents the facet of humanity that doesn't just believe in devoting themselves in some higher cause, Lorgar is the facet of humanity that needs to do so.

Better than being a flat-Earth atheist like the Emperor.

So when Emps is like 'yeah nah stop fucking around and making cathedrals, make dorf forts' Lorgar is left needing to search for a new higher cause to devote himself to.

Or to quote George Carlin, "Rather than mindlessly and aimlessly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetant father-figure who doesn't give a shit I decided to look around for somehing else to worship"

Someone's drinking the Imperial Kool Aide. It's confirmed that the 'they died in battle' story was just the Emps propaganda. He executed the surviving thunder warriors after Ararat.

And yet, there was still a living Thunder Warrior long, long after Ararat. Did the Emperor just ignore this one Thunder Warrior? I'm not saying you're wrong, but there's evidence to contradict your assertion. As TempAcc points out.

According to the wiki it's because the imperial forces mistakenly believed that he'd been killed with the rest of them. Sort of like Rattleballs from Adventure Time.

Lorgar and Horus didn't have genetic flaws, only the circumstances and events from the universe.

I thought it was pretty common belief that personality flaws in the primarchs are still genetic flaws, one way or another. Like even if Lorgar hadn't landed on Colchis, or been affected by the Warp, he'd still be a God-Botherer because it's literally in his DNA to be so.

and certainly the most decent guy out of all of the primarchs.

Nicer than Sanguinius? Mmmm no. Also, heresy detected. Lorgar turns into a sadistic fuck later.

Ok, you got me. I'm not totally familiar with every one of the primarchs and so probably wasn't qualified to make that statement. My experience with Warhammer is largely limited to playing Chaos Gate, Space Hulk and Blood Bowl, a short promotional event I went to at a comic shop a few years back, and paging through the two Warhammer 40k wikis.

[Rolepgeek]

Hey guys...calm down? On the one hand, the Emperor is a dick. On the other hand, so are the Chaos Gods.

[nenjin]

Or to quote George Carlin, "Rather than mindlessly and aimlessly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetant father-figure who doesn't give a shit I decided to look around for somehing else to worship"

Well, sorta, if George Carlin had been totally rejected by God first. That's kinda why Lorgar isn't more badass in 40k I think. He does an about face to Chaos out of a sense of hurt and rejection, not because he suddenly became fed up with the Emperor and the inconsistency of the Imperial Truth. The Emperor had to literally blow up one of Lorgar's favorite cities before he'd get the message, to get off deez Imperial Nuts. Lorgar is a bit like the runt of the group who tried too hard, embarrassed himself pretty bad, was kind of a joke to everyone, got beat up, then spent the next 10 years of his life meticulously plotting the downfall of everyone and worshiping Satan.

Although given that the Emperor may have basically programmed Lorgar to be religious, then scolded and chastised him for being what he was made to be...the Emperor is still pretty much a dick.

[Rolepgeek]

Is that how you see it?

I see him as the guy who tried too hard, and worshiped that one 40,000 year old guy with god-like powers who imbued many people with extreme power and managed to accomplish some things that nobody had before. You know, because that's totally unreasonable to do. I mean, they guy said 'hey, even if I look and act and sound like a God, I'm not one so don't worship me. Gods and magic doesn't exist, and these are psychic powers not magic. totally different. Also ignore these Daemons I'm killing as I deal with hacking into this portal system of a super ancient race. They aren't real either. Oh, and you can't worship anything or I'll beat up your planet because I said so. Also genocide is okay.'

So, he created a religion based around the most powerful guy they knew, because weirdly enough, some people have spiritual needs and pure science can't always meet that, and that guy decided to respond by destroying an entire city and forcing them to bow down. Did they overreact? Sure, but you'd be resentful too. Did Emps overreact? Oh hell yes he did. He had a hate-boner for religion, that much is clear. Unreasonably so, and it's one way of showing how he was imperfect. More human. Not infallible. Closer to everyone. Similarly, Lorgar was subject to the fault of smoldering resentment and the need to worship something. Wasn't his fault, it was in his blood, literally, after all. In a way, his fall is almost as tragic as Magnus or Angron. It's similar to working for your dad as a trucker, not doing it quite the way he wanted since you have to deal with whatever circumstances and also clients kinda need to know your number dad...and so he blows up your truck with C4, chokeslams you and all your buds to the ground, and tells you never to do that again.

You wouldn't actually want to keep working for him after that.

[UXLZ]

some people have spiritual needs

Really? As in, genetically? I've always considered them as results of upbringing and lack of information.

Then again, do you mean spiritual needs or the need to worship, because those are very different things.

[nenjin]

Well, I did say the Emperor is a dick, didn't I?

I'd dispute that all people have spiritual needs. Lorgar was alone among his brothers in that need. Sanguinius maybe comes the next closest, but his outlook was more mystic than religious. I suppose Jagahatai Khan might have acknowledged the spirit world without feeling like he owed it anything. Russ was aware of it, although if he had any feelings toward it, it was most likely hitting it with an ax.

Magnus saw the truth of it, which still informs his attitude today. There are gods, but to worship them (as a Primarch) is the wrong path. Magnus (like the Emperor) saw dealing with Chaos Gods as an exchange.

It's similar to working for your dad as a trucker, not doing it quite the way he wanted since you have to deal with whatever circumstances and also clients kinda need to know your number dad...and so he blows up your truck with C4, chokeslams you and all your buds to the ground, and tells you never to do that again.

I'd call waging the Great Crusade and writing the Lectitio Divinitatus two separate and distinct things, especially from the Emperor's point of view. I seem to recall Lorgar using some pretty unpleasant methods during the Great Crusade when people, compliant or not, didn't accept his version of the Emperor's Divinity too.

From the Emperor's perspective, Lorgar was actively undermining what he was trying to build, whether it was malicious or not. And he couldn't take the message, which the Emperor and other Primarchs tried more than once to tell him. I guess I don't feel for Lorgar because I don't really identify with his motivations, or his eventual reaction. Worship isn't really my bag, and the idea of worshiping something who doesn't acknowledge it seems pretty pathetic to me. It made Lorgar look a sycophant to me, his need almost desperate. I feel way less bad for him than for Cruze or Angron. He didn't start nearly as emotionally or psychologically crippled like they did. He had the capacity, maybe, to tread a different path. Instead, he was a principle architect of millennia of suffering by mankind.

The real irony is eventually he got exactly what he used to want, he just had to cast the Emperor aside to get it.

Really? As in, genetically? I've always considered them as results of upbringing and lack of information.

Let's not go and get real up in here. He means genetically in that the Emperor programmed his DNA to be a 'true believer.' It's science fiction, it gets to assert stuff like opinions can be genetically underpinned if it wants to.