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[Andres]

The thing is, the fight basically ended up as a draw. Emps was alive to sustain the Golden Throne and stuff but he was basically put out of commission as much as Horus was.

Horus died. So that's a bit "more out of commission" than the Emperor. And it's been said many places that without the wound Sanguinius dealt Horus, the Emperor wouldn't have beaten him. Horus would have just straight up killed him and walked away from the fight to rule the Imperium.

Like most 40k victories, it was Pyrrhic at best.

If the Emperor was powerful enough to one-shot delete Horus even after he was mortally wounded, I doubt Sanguinius was needed at all just for the Emperor to kill him.

[nenjin]

Except, that's not how it went down? Everything I've read said it was a pitched battle between them and it was desperate as hell, even with Horus wounded. So bad that what's his name Guardsmen literally threw himself at Horus and did get obliterated, just to try and save the Emperor.

[Rolepgeek]

Except, that's not how it went down? Everything I've read said it was a pitched battle between them and it was desperate as hell, even with Horus wounded. So bad that what's his name Guardsmen literally threw himself at Horus and did get obliterated, just to try and save the Emperor.

And then the Emperor fought at full power.

If he had fought at full power the whole time, meanwhile...

[Andres]

Except, that's not how it went down? Everything I've read said it was a pitched battle between them and it was desperate as hell, even with Horus wounded. So bad that what's his name Guardsmen literally threw himself at Horus and did get obliterated, just to try and save the Emperor.

And then the Emperor fought at full power.

If he had fought at full power the whole time, meanwhile...

Exactly. During the fight he could not bring himself to kill his favoured son until Horus eviscerated Ollanius Pius, showing that he was beyond redemption. It was at that point that the Emperor stopped holding back and one-shot Horus with mind bullets.

[UXLZ]

Yeah, it seems more to me that 'Emps wouldn't have beaten Horus without Sanguinius's previous damage' and more like 'Emps would have died before he started fighting seriously since Horus would have been at full power.'

Emps could have deleted him either way, but the chink allowed the fight to drag on long enough for Horus to prove himself beyond redemption.

Of course, it may have been Just As Planeed (for the Emperor) anyway, if the theory that all the Psyker's sacrificed to feed him actually contribute to his power, and he's gonna end up as basically a new Chaos God (but Imperium-aligned) holds true.

[Rolepgeek]

Only if they just let the Golden Throne finally fail and allow him to be reborn, from what I remember of the rumors. Although I don't think he planned or intended it.

EDIT: I kinda want to consider the idea of what would be happening if the Tau had an Emperor-like figure. Something like all of the Ethereals came together and combined their powers in a similar fashion to how the druids of Earth did. Yeah, yeah, Tau are super weak psychically, so he wouldn't be able to mind-rape as many people simultaneously as the Emperor, but they'd probably be a fucking genius at diplomacy, technology, and ranged combat. Or something. I just like 'what if' scenarios, when they allow for interesting results. Would the Imperium decide 'Fuck this shit, drop everything and kill that abomination' or would they be forced to give ground even faster? Would he be able to negotiate a more lasting peace(by which I mean 200 years rather than 20) wherein both Imperium and Empire team up and kill Dynasties?

Or what if Horus had won, then subsequently told Chaos to fuck off, he'd gotten what he wanted?

[Andres]

If the Emperor was created by the sacrifice of a few thousand shamans back in the 8th millennium BC, is it possible for a few thousand psykers to sacrifice themselves and create a new Emperor in the 40th millennium AD?

[UXLZ]

I'm not sure if Horus was capable of doing that.

Also, combining to form one more individual is probably a lot more complicated, otherwise there'd be hundreds of Emperors. In some way, he was special.

The Golden Throne is slowly failing regardless.

[Rolepgeek]

I'm not sure if Horus was capable of doing that.

Also, combining to form one more individual is probably a lot more complicated, otherwise there'd be hundreds of Emperors. In some way, he was special.

The Golden Throne is slowly failing regardless.

Slow stagnation is not quite the same as just ending it, as any good Nurglite or Khornate will tell you.

[Neonivek]

40k, when you consider each individual event in isolation, rarely results in a stalemate. Someone, or some planet, is usually dead at the end. The meta I agree though. Especially the Cadian Gate. Which is why I only half pay attention to "official" GWS events, because their motivations are different than the story writers.

I think that's why I've stuck with 40k for so long I think. It's a setting, not really a story in and of itself. It's not Game of Thrones and doesn't have to continually be going somewhere, shocking the senses and surpassing expectations. But all settings eventually have to evolve, and based on what's happening to Warhammer Fantasy.....I am not encouraged for 40k's future. If they actually push it to the apocalyptic end of the Imperium, the War to End All Wars, that'd be cool. If they do some Deus Ex Machina ancient alien race crap, I'll just draw a line in the sand of 40k's timeline where I stop paying attention, much like I did with Fantasy.

Honestly it is a setting I feel shouldn't actually advance its story... rather it should continue to be fleshed out and expanded.

Since the further the story goes the more you have to ask "Why hasn't anyone won yet?"

[nenjin]

I've always read that at the height of his power, Horus eclipsed the Emperor pretty significantly. But I've heard the mind bullets thing before. Where exactly does that come from?

40k, when you consider each individual event in isolation, rarely results in a stalemate. Someone, or some planet, is usually dead at the end. The meta I agree though. Especially the Cadian Gate. Which is why I only half pay attention to "official" GWS events, because their motivations are different than the story writers.

I think that's why I've stuck with 40k for so long I think. It's a setting, not really a story in and of itself. It's not Game of Thrones and doesn't have to continually be going somewhere, shocking the senses and surpassing expectations. But all settings eventually have to evolve, and based on what's happening to Warhammer Fantasy.....I am not encouraged for 40k's future. If they actually push it to the apocalyptic end of the Imperium, the War to End All Wars, that'd be cool. If they do some Deus Ex Machina ancient alien race crap, I'll just draw a line in the sand of 40k's timeline where I stop paying attention, much like I did with Fantasy.

Honestly it is a setting I feel shouldn't actually advance its story... rather it should continue to be fleshed out and expanded.

Since the further the story goes the more you have to ask "Why hasn't anyone won yet?"

Scale is always the reason behind that. A million billion battles on a billion trillion worlds. Writers could keep doing novels for the next couple decades and still not reasonably exhaust the space and scale of the Imperium. I've got this reasonably complete star map (as far as one can get) of the Imperium, and I think I'll make it a retirement project or something to re-read my library of 40k and try to plot each planet on the map.

[Tack]

Considering how fucked up time and everything else in the eye of terror is, since leman russ entered the eye with a few space wolves, does this mean he can possibly show up anywhere, at any time?

The 'Leman going back in time' thing doesn't seem likely given that he hasn't popped out of anywhere and cut apart Horus. It not happening is a pretty indication that it won't happen.

That being said I remember a part in the Space Wolves omnibus where Ragnar goes to the Eye of Terror and find's Russ's Honor guard, who are all about as old as Bjern and crazy awesome.
Even they don't know where Russ is though, afaik. 'Twas probably the coolest part of the whole omnibus though.

[Neonivek]

Scale is always the reason behind that

Naw, they given all the guys pretty definitive "win" conditions that puts the current time limit on the battles to a much shorter time frame.

For example if all the tomb worlds activate? The Necrons win.

[UXLZ]

The Imperium is inefficient.
Chaos have Failbaddon.
Tau are still only just growing.
Necrons are waking up and are scattered/not all of one mind.
Tyrannids don't have their main fleet.
Orks are in mini Waaaghs (scattered) with no coordination.
Eldar are too busy being sexy space elves avoiding getting their souls nommed by Slaanesh.
Dark Elder are see above^

Breaking down the Imperium further.

The AM only cares abut Tech.
The IG are too zergy and have shitty tactics.
The Spehss Mahreenz are still dealing with losses from the heresy and their own problems.
The SoB are too busy burning random shit.
The Inquisition - It's not their job.
the Custodes are keeping Terra from being overran by millions of demons.

And the entire thing is too bloated and bogged down by Administratum red tape and bullshit.

[nenjin]

Scale is always the reason behind that

Naw, they given all the guys pretty definitive "win" conditions that puts the current time limit on the battles to a much shorter time frame.

For example if all the tomb worlds activate? The Necrons win.

You say that like 40k wouldn't draw out the death of humanity for another decade. Necrons don't instantly wake up and the "Winner is you" screen pops up. Tyranids can't eat a galaxy in the blink of an eye, Orks would have to stop to fight each other every other fight....the death of the galaxy takes an immensely long time unless it's by super science or super magic capabilities. As we've discussed, a Chaos victory would be a slow death as well, even with the warp spewing out everywhere.