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[Teneb]

I think it's fairly likely that CA plan to add naval battles as a paid add-on at some point, thus making more money for GW.

Nah, they outright said they won't do naval battles, period.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

that's a wonderful theory, it'd be a shame if facts would threaten it

Well, what's the gripe with GW's IP and game approaches then?

*sigh* Let's review THE LIST

Of 40k video games (I'll talk about TWW in a sec) available on Steam, we got (sorted in order of "relevance"):

40k: Armageddon

40k: Gladius

Eisenhorn: Xenos

Legacy of Dorn

DoW II: Retribution (sorted separately for quality purposes)

40k: Sanctus Reach

40k: Space Wolf

Original Grandday Big Mac Dawn of War

Talisman: Horus Heresy

40k: Deathwatch

DoW II

Space Hulk

Horus Heresy: Battle of Tallarn

40k: Regicide

Spacehulk: Deathwing

40k: Kill Team

40k: Eternal Crusade

Space Marine

DoW III

Well. Well. Well. What do we have a here? Much like the Imperial Guard, GWS' REAL strategy is to drown us in a sea of bullshit tabletop simulator, TBS, or mobile throwaway games that are absolute fucking garbage. Of real games, that actually decide to innovate (whether they were successful or not) we basically have the original Dawn of War and Space Marine. Deathwatch is different Left4Dead, Armageddon is different and less-good Panzer General/Tactics(?), Eternal Crusade (which is a flop btw, they FAILED in their plan, and while it may have some quality to it, it is NOT the game that was promised) is just different Planetside, REGICIDE IS FUCKING CHESS, need I go on?\

In short, it's a fucking shit show, and while some of these games may be okay or even enjoyable they are by and far not quality. B-games if you will. DoW III was such a massive kick in the teeth, well, imo there won't be another good 40k video game for a decade at least. The gripe is that GWS fundamentally does NOT understand video games. When they lend out their 40k IP, they do it poorly, to the wrong people, with the wrong ideas, and not enough resources to make them properly.

Now. WHFB? They're doing a little better. The market is not nearly as saturated with shit titles as 40k is and Total Warhammer is fantastic in terms of quality. Vermintide, while also being a Left4Dead simulator was also pretty good. And then riiiiiight after hitting that high note, boom. Total Warhammer is actually three games the should have been one. Actually fuck CA, one of my fav development studios who are now my most hated right after EA. Three games that should have been one or at least SIZABLE DLC! My god. After that, the games literally prioritize graphics over innovating the gameplay. They've done a surprisingly good job of refining the TW formula, but I've been playing the same fucking game since Rome II essentially. There was just so much MORE they could have done with TWW and instead they chose to make it prettier--which was inevitable, but it's still annoying as hell. BUT, Vermintide II actually looks like it has potential, so I'm not gonna disregard the WHFB IP just yet.

TL;DR: There are basically only two good 40k games ever made and both large and small companies churn out the worst possible games for the 40k IP. WHFB is slightly better off, but CA is the new EA.

[LordPorkins]

Er.... what? Total war Warhammer has 3 games?


Also, Dude, I cannot be mad at them for splitting the games. The amount of content in the second one is HUGE.

I will agree that they cant seem to get 40k down right though

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Maybe I misheard? I think the plan was to make it a trilogy that all connects into one mega game though? Or something like that.

[Andres]

*sigh* Let's review THE LIST

I don't think you can blame GW for some of this. Dawn of War III is something they can be forgiven for for sure. They gave that property to the guys who made the previous Dawn of War games, which is a completely fine and acceptable decision for them to make. The blame for that goes to Relic themselves for putting out what ended up being a bad game, not GW.

Eternal Crusade and Deathwing both seemed like games which had potential but didn't manage to reach it, again suggesting that it was the fault of the developers, not GW's actions or choices.

Perhaps your biggest fault is that you're criticising GW for not being good at video games. What exactly is this point of yours meant to accomplish? Are you saying they, with their inferior understanding of video games, do video games themselves instead of letting actual game developers handle them? Or that they shouldn't license the Warhammer IP ever again? Seriously, this criticism of yours just seems like whining.

[Dorsidwarf]

*sigh* Let's review THE LIST

I don't think you can blame GW for some of this. Dawn of War III is something they can be forgiven for for sure. They gave that property to the guys who made the previous Dawn of War games, which is a completely fine and acceptable decision for them to make. The blame for that goes to Relic themselves for putting out what ended up being a bad game, not GW.

Eternal Crusade and Deathwing both seemed like games which had potential but didn't manage to reach it, again suggesting that it was the fault of the developers, not GW's actions or choices.

Perhaps your biggest fault is that you're criticising GW for not being good at video games. What exactly is this point of yours meant to accomplish? Are you saying they, with their inferior understanding of video games, do video games themselves instead of letting actual game developers handle them? Or that they shouldn't license the Warhammer IP ever again? Seriously, this criticism of yours just seems like base, useless whining.

I think what he's saying is that they should exercise some form of control towards what the people they license their most valuable IP to put out. I mean, *chess*. There is no way that Geedubs were unaware of the intent of this game dev company. The only way gw could not have known that all these companies they gave their IP to were going to make b-grade knockoffs of other products is if they just gave the game companies a blank cheque to the IP which would be... an interesting design decision to say the least.

I'll let them have DOW3 though, relic can suck on that egg.


in short: having one of the most famous sci-fi IPs of all, you think they'd take more care about what the people they're flinging it to are actually doing with it.

[LordPorkins]

To kinda just state a fact, and not lean towards any side of the argument, GW has, multiple times, shown that its not totally sure what its doing.

It has a very unique thing going on, and the company many times makes some weird choices with procedures. A lot of times it seems that they blatantly disregard everything the community has to say, then once in a while it seems like they actually care. For example, during the times of the Wardian Heresy, GW seemed to not proofread anything our Spiritual liege pumped out for a long time, despite multiple people informing them that noone like his works. But then, they fire him after a rather long stretch of time where they were supporting him. THEN, a few years later, they hire him back, and have no real explanation for firing him the first time.

A lot of their decisions are just weird looking at it from a business standpoint.

Just my two bits.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

OKAY.

First of all, GWS gave the IP back to Relic after it bought by another company. Like... I don't know what that pitch was, but it can't have been good. They just gave it back for past history without considering the fact that there had been downsizing, staff layoffs, and a change in leadership.

Eternal Crusade and Deathwing aren't GWS' fault, I'll give you that. But the point still stands, all of these licenses are given out AFTER (I assume) the companies have pitched ideas for games to someone at GWS. So there are two possibilities here, a.) GWS literally has no idea what good video games are and just gives out the IP to the wrong people or b.) they give it out to ANYBODY with an idea.

I don't know which is worse. And anyways, IT'S THEIR FUCKING IP, of course I'm going to pin it on them? Are you actually suggesting GWS doesn't keep up with the development of these games and has no oversight on the development process? That they just give away the IP and expect a finished product in X amount of time with no sort of input or control over the teams working on these games?

That's way worse.

Whatever the case, GWS needs to be more selective in how they distribute their IP. Obviously they're making money otherwise they wouldn't keep operating under this business model, but IMO they are bankrupting their reputation. Like... I don't know about you, but for me personally I am extremely skeptical any time a 40k game is released. And for people who aren't fans or don't really know what 40k is, I'm sure the brand is just viewed as one of many throw-aways to fill the digital marketplaces.

[Andres]

That they just give away the IP and expect a finished product in X amount of time with no sort of input or control over the teams working on these games?

You want them to have input or control over video game creation? Isn't one of your bigger complaints that they're not good at video games? Why would you want someone who's not good at video games to be involved in video game development?

[Urist McScoopbeard]

That they just give away the IP and expect a finished product in X amount of time with no sort of input or control over the teams working on these games?

You want them to have input or control over video game creation? Isn't one of your bigger complaints that they're not good at video games? Why would you want someone who's not good at video games to be involved in video game development?

To restate, I said that they fundamentally do not understand video games. That quote depends on whether or not they actually exert creative control over the games themselves (as those who lend out their IPs or are floating parts of the check are won't to do.)

If they are already exerting some control over these games, then I stand by what I said. There is of course a certain financial obligation to meet which is possibly why some of these titles have been released at all, but for GWS to actually have all the information as the games are developed at regular intervals and not raise some questions about them is insane. And there's nothing I can ask for other than for them to fire their entire licensing and acquisitions department.

If it is like YOU suggest, and GWS is just handing out "blank cheques" then that is a different problem entirely. I assumed GWS had some control and simply, in classless producer fashion, was ruining their games by trying to appeal to wider demographics without really considering the quality of the game. If it is the other way around and they just give their IP away for some percentage of the profits or some sort of lump sum and then exert no control over the development process then THAT is just foolish and could explain why some of these games haven't been stopped. In that case, I would say they need to tighten their controls significantly. At this point I would prefer a handful of moderately good games than two dozen shit ones and one flagship hit.

However, I would be surprised if they truly didn't step into the development process of the games we've listed. Even the most famous artists, directors, writers, and video game designers are beholden to their monetary overlords in a way that significantly affects development. Such executive controls are commonplace and even high profile with the likes of Marvel (in one of the better cases, still has lots of problems) or more relevant to the discussion Hideo Kojima and Capcom. With Hideo consistently making great games at great profit and Capcom consistently attempting to further monetize and ruin his work.

[LordBaal]

To be fair both BFG games have been really good. The Android one was the board game to the t while the pc one was a magnificent adaptation to a real time tactics game with a fun but ligth strategy cover.

Both lacked more races and mod support, that led to their quiet deaths.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Sorry, forgot to mention Battlefleet Gothic on the list.

EDIT: It's still only a handful out of an orchard.

[Kot]

40k: Armageddon

Great game.

40k: Gladius

It has not come out yet, but has potential to be pretty great.

Eisenhorn: Xenos

Haven't played it, but I heard it is suprisingly decent, it's just getting a lot of backslash for not being great breaktrough WH40k game like DoW was.

Legacy of Dorn

Heard it is pretty great for what it is, but you have to be into COYA text games.

DoW II: Retribution (sorted separately for quality purposes)
Original Grandday Big Mac Dawn of War
DoW II
DoW III

Dawn Of War, that's all.

40k: Sanctus Reach

Pretty good I heard, to the point I can see some people actually playing it quite a lot.

40k: Space Wolf

Meh? I mean, it is a card game with bunch of added steps, and it is apparently fun and great at core, but has a lot of grind and apparnetly lack of microtransactions that was not balanced out that weight it down heavily.

Talisman: Horus Heresy

Board game that with Wh40k sauce and apparently also decent?

40k: Deathwatch

Similar story as with Space Wolf, decent game in it's core but it's ported from mobiles and has the same grind and lack of balance due to lack of microtrasnactions issue.

Space Hulk

It is adaptation of original Space Hulk games with modern graphics and bunch of other stuff, not much else, so it's... decent too, I suppose.

Horus Heresy: Battle of Tallarn

Meh, I dunno why it's so high on the list. Basically same idea as Armageddon, just a mobile game port. Would be fine game 20 years ago.

40k: Regicide

Decent idea, great art, meh coding and lack of post-relase support. It's ok for what it is, which is chess.

Spacehulk: Deathwing

Warhammer L4D, pretty amazing game, just suffers from techinical difficulties. Probably will get better with time, as devs still support it.

40k: Kill Team
What if Dawn Of War II had direct controls. Pretty neat idea, but too short.

40k: Eternal Crusade

It is pretty great for what it is, but could have been better... and it's free, so, there's that.

Space Marine

Old but pretty good. Could be better too, and sadly, we still mourn Space Marine 2.

Where the fuck is Battlefleet Gothic: Armada, by the way? Probably the third game after Dawn of Wars and Space Marines that is actually amazing, although it suffers from Devs being way too Tau-loving blueberry scum.
Mind you, I do not think that any of these games really is worth the full price, but I do not even think that any games these days are. Prices got overblown in recent years all over the board. Still, nearly all of these games are at least decent at what they are, the problem is that they aren't high budget blockbuster games. And there won't really be high budget blockbuster WH40k games simply because the sheer "it's WH40k" doesn't guarantee big enough sales, and due to that nobody really wants to pay up for the license (sure, you can argue that GW is basically giving it away for free to small shitty studios, but now think if they would just give it away for free if EA wanted to make Warhammerfront).

[ArchAIngel]

Yeah, I did a LP of Spess Mahrine, it still holds up, even if it REALLY suffers from not having a sequel.


Sooooo salty over that.


I wanted a Bad Guy Route!

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Like I said, ya I forgot to get Battlefleet Gothic on there. My B. But man you are VERY forgiving to a lot of those games. I'm not going to go back through the whole list again, but I'll just restate that basically The Original Dawn of War, Space Marine, and Battlefleet Gothic are basically the only good 40k games. (Also how dare you lump DoW III in there with the first two. So bad. Even the second one isn't great. The mechanics just aren't fun.)

It's not about big budget blockbusters--although it'd be nice to have one. It's the fact that it's all turn based strategy, mobile games with weak mechanics, card games, or tabletop simulators. Like I said, B games. This is the era of indie games and yet everything on that list is pretty much filler. You are very very forgiving on these games man. Everything is just "okay for what it is" or "decent", that's not good. That's run-of-the-mill. (we're just going to have to agree to disagree about Armageddon.)

There's just nothing NEW here. There isn't a game here that wows me or makes me wanna go play another 40k game. Even Space Marine was kinda eh in the story and acting. It was just fun to beat up Orks. Battlefleet Gothic is solid. A little content devoid, but hey.

OG Dawn of War was like *BOOM* heres all these armies (via expansions) look at all the explosions and death and blood splatters, turrets, bunkers, tanks, waves of infantry. It's pretty good. It's really not all that without Ultimate Apocalypse. And before you say something oh you can't hold this brand's bar up to the height of a 3rd-party modification, well let me tell you this, TONY STARK BUILT ULTIMATE APOCALYPSE IN A CAVE... WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS, Relic should have been able to make better sequels than II and III!

*Also yes, RIP the Space Marine sequel I was actually kind of hopeful for that.

EDIT: Also RIP Dark Millennium which could have been a cool MMO.