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Author Topic: WH40K discussion thread: [loading grimdark, please wait]  (Read 1051080 times)

Kot

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6765 on: October 01, 2016, 02:00:56 pm »

Nurgle is unconditional uncritical love.
Slannesh is conditional critical love.

Emperor is unconditional critical love. He's obviously the best.
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pisskop

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6766 on: October 01, 2016, 02:02:23 pm »

Isnt slaanesh about embracing your defining attribuites to an extreme?  the overweight gal in this example wouldnt by virtue of being a 'blind date', enpower slaanesh.,

but the slutty outfit and wet sloppy public indecency that followed might
or if she  stalks you and sends you creepy cuttings from newpapers about you fake son?  Is that excessive, public, and gaudy enough?
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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6767 on: October 01, 2016, 02:30:36 pm »

Nah. If you are an ugly, fat, boring whatever and happy with it, you are pretty much anti-Slaanesh. Being perfect and decadent is the modus operandi for Slaanesh. And as for having sex with them, there's another problem: you aren't indulging. Unless that happens to be your specific kink, but that then is more... hmm. It's a difficult question in my opinion. I might say yes, but I don't know... I feel like it's missing the point, in a way.

But on the other hand, the disgust emotion is, as a whole, antithetical to Nurgle. If Nurgle could be defined as a single concept, it would be anti-disgust. That's why he's the nicest of the Chaos Gods: he's the most accepting. Disgust is pretty clearly the domain of the Emperor (or Khorne, in a sense. What passes for disgust amongst Chaos is exclusively Khorne's domain). Slaanesh is similar, but it's more about self-love. Whether that means self-love as in to become perfect unto a god, or self-love in the sense of accepting your disgusting self isn't really defined. I want to say that the second is overlapping too much with Nurgle's sphere, but... The difference between regular slaneeshi hedonism (which is just the word hedonism as everyone commonly uses the word) and Nurglite Hedonism (which is an extremely bizarre, "let the diseases percolate" type thing) is sometimes odd. You are still abusing your body, but the sense

If I consider what conflicts Slaanesh and Nurgle have, it would be thus: a follower of Nurgle considering Slaaneshi devotees to be unnecessarily cruel, unaccepting of their normal nature (Slaneeshi self-mutilate too), violent, and uninterested in disease. Slaaneshi followers would consider Nurglites to be disgusting, ugly, fat, uninterested in finer pleasures, interested only in a bizarre acceptance of disease instead of pleasure at all costs. Perhaps the word disgust *is* appropriate here then. I can figure out whether an action is Nurglite or Slaaneshi when close to the line, but when you actually picture the middle-ground, it gets sort of fuzzy. They aren't opposite Gods, after all. Maybe they work together in instances like this. I don't know for sure. Thinking about this is making me lose my appetite, so I stop here.
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6768 on: October 01, 2016, 02:51:05 pm »

Emperor is unconditional critical love. He's obviously the best.

Unconditional. Except, you know, for the heresy bit.

Isnt slaanesh about embracing your defining attribuites to an extreme?  the overweight gal in this example wouldnt by virtue of being a 'blind date', enpower slaanesh.,

but the slutty outfit and wet sloppy public indecency that followed might

Well the overweight gag is what makes it a Seinfeld joke. Costanza and Seinfeld getting worked up over it is what empowers Slaanesh.

[PHILOSOFAGGOTRY TANGENT]

Slaanesh is about pursuing the extreme of sensation. If lying around getting fat truly does it for you, if that's your deepest ideal of perfection....Slaanesh will encourage you to become as fat and lazy as possible, until that sensation alone is no longer enough and you start adding new things to your pursuit of sensation. And they'd make you the most fabulous 700 pound person laying on a pile of silk pillows and slaves ever.

Because I think another part of the hedonism angle is pride, which is what caught the Emperor's Children. Pride for a lot of people means being the best at something. The best fighter, the most comely person in the room, the most insightful etc...I think it's a basic human desire to want to be desirable to others. So if your defining attribute is horrible acne....chances are that is not something you're proud of, something you wish was different. And Slaanesh will help with that and take the sensation of pride and self-love to another level for you, by taking away your acne. (On the other side of the coin, Nurgle would be like "Bro your acne is baller. Imma make it even more baller.") And sort of like laying around being fat and lazy and self-indulgent eventually hits saturation point....so does normal definitions of beauty. And that's when Slaanesh gets weird with it. You leave behind conventional human ideas about pleasure, pain, beauty and aesthetic because they're simply not enough anymore.

And then at the root of the Slaanesh philosophy is...selfishness and self-obsession. In some ways I think Slaanesh is the most human-oriented Chaos god because they get our flaws and how they make us tick and work on them in a truly subversive manner. Tzeentch I think is a close second.

Contrast Nurgle. Nurgle is not a god whose philosophy is based in selfishness. It's outward looking. So concerned with all that healthy, uninfected life! Nurgle doesn't care who you are or what's wrong with you. He has a copy of Everybody Poops next to him and everyone is welcome to the fold. Nurgle presents a "utopian" ideal of equality in filth, where everyone shares the same thing at a basic level. While that plays to human idealism and our sense of belonging, I don't think equality itself is a basic human instinct. To me that sets Nurgle's philosophy a bit outside the universal human experience.

Khorne's philosophy captures the primal, destructive nature of the human spirit but in some ways I think he's the least tuned in to humanity of the four. (I guess that depends on your perspective. Since 40k is all war most just give Khorne his association to humanity by default.) But when you think about it, Khorne interacts with the smallest range of human emotions of them all. Rage and martial pride are a pretty small subset of the human condition. Berserking is in some ways losing touch with your humanity, losing touch with yourself and becoming the beast. It's not really an outward looking philosophy, beyond looking for the next thing to kill, nor is it really an inward-looking one because all that's inside you is the bloodlust. Death is the only real goal or outcome. An end to possibilities rather than the creation of new ones like the other three. Consider that this is why you rarely have insurgent Khorne cults in the fiction, versus the other three who all about insurgency. Khorne cults and their tenets and worship don't fit into the average human world very well. They just tend to destroy them. (All that said, some of my favorite 40k Chaos settings are ones that put Khorne's philosophy to interesting purposes, like in Daemon World.)

Tzeentch comes close to being the God most attuned to humanity, if for slightly different reasons than Slaanesh. Tzeentch plays to our strengths as a species more than our weaknesses. Tzeentch's philosophy is simultaneously inward and outward-looking. You look to the self and to the universe for mastery and understanding. Ambition is what underpins Tzeentch's philosophy, and at least pre-Heresy that's probably humanity most defining, luminous trait. The philosophy is also somewhat of a meritocracy (and I mean that in the "survival of the fittest" sense, not the "fairness" sense.) The most knowledgeable and clever gain the most power. Tzeentch is empowered by our will and want to do and to grow and the lengths we're willing to go to do so. While Slaanesh might be a form of self-improvement, it's internal. It's not like, at a fundamental level, people's realities can be changed by the sensations you experience. Tzeentch however is self-improvement, on some level, that others can also experience, that is external. Your knowledge can be taught, your ability to read the future can change the course of history and your power can reach out into the universe and change the lives of others.

Tzeentch, like Slaanesh, understands that are our egos, their good parts and bad, make us incredibly vulnerable to their philosophies, whereas Khorne and Nurgle focus on the strength and frailty of our bodies as our greatest vulnerability. There's elements of the physical and the emotional in all the gods but they split along different lines. And to me, while dying violently would suck and rotting away and becoming a plague zombie would be revolting, somehow letting the Chaos gods get in your head and change who you are seems more terrifying to me. Nurgle and Khorne are more involuntary attacks on humanity. They kill people and spread plagues, and maybe some parts of humanity get off on that. But Tzeentch and Slaanesh are voluntary attacks on the human spirit because they leverage basic human foibles across the largest swath of our existences. They're the day to day evils while Khorne and Nurgle at the apocalyptic evils, and Tzeentch and Slaanesh seem more fiendish to me because of it.

*gets a bolt round to the back of the head while scribbling*

It's too bad there aren't more enjoyable Chaos books written. The late 80s and 90s had a lot of good ones that really allowed themselves to drill down into deeper concepts about the Chaos Gods and you really got to the philosophies under-pinning the beliefs. That's when 40k manages to tap into the Micheal Moorcock inspirations and become something more than just slash fic.

Chaos and the Four are treated fairly 2d dimensionally these days. Although maybe that's because I'm still reading the HH and it takes a innocent, ignorant approach to understanding Chaos. Still. I'd like to see more books about Daemon Worlds and the culture of what manages to live there. Because when you have to use Chaos as an actual setting, rather than just as a door-kicking action filler or horror show, it forces you to think about it actually would apply to life. Instead of just "blah blah kill you blah blah use your blood for rituals blah blah skulls on the wall eyes on the floor blah blah kill it with fire."
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 03:17:42 pm by nenjin »
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Grim Portent

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6769 on: October 01, 2016, 03:19:11 pm »

Firstly, new painted unit, some Tyranid Rippers.

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On the subject of Chaos and their ties to humanity I tend to think they appeal to people at their extremes because they offer freedom of a sort.

Nurgle frees you from despair and the fear of your own mortality, to worship him is to have embraced the inevitable decline of all things.  He appeals to the fearful, and the paranoid, he offers them a way to let go of their fears.

Tzeentch offers you freedom from mortal constraints, the power and opportunity to make dreams reality, be they dreams of equality breaking chains of oppression or dreams of unpowered flight. He calls to those who cry for a better world and those who would see stagnant reality unmade and replaced with a brighter future.

Slaanesh allows you to escape the doldrums of daily life, escape judgement, embrace to the utmost what makes you feel most alive no matter how much others would feel you shouldn't. The artist who wishes to devote every waking moment to their art without the uninspired intruding upon them, the hedonist who must hide from society's eyes and the warrior who wishes to perfect the art of war with no limitation.

Khorne offers you freedom from your own weaknesses, from fear, from regret, from humiliation and from sorrow. It is tempting to those in dark places to cast everything aside and drown their feelings of futility and failure in an endless tide of blood and rage. The broken, the downtrodden, the bullied and oppressed, the failures and those who fester with emotional pain, Khorne lets them forget the hurt, forget the sadness and replace it all with a new purpose.
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BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6770 on: October 01, 2016, 03:34:44 pm »

Nah. If you are an ugly, fat, boring whatever and happy with it, you are pretty much anti-Slaanesh. Being perfect and decadent is the modus operandi for Slaanesh. And as for having sex with them, there's another problem: you aren't indulging. Unless that happens to be your specific kink, but that then is more... hmm. It's a difficult question in my opinion. I might say yes, but I don't know... I feel like it's missing the point, in a way.

But on the other hand, the disgust emotion is, as a whole, antithetical to Nurgle. If Nurgle could be defined as a single concept, it would be anti-disgust. That's why he's the nicest of the Chaos Gods: he's the most accepting. Disgust is pretty clearly the domain of the Emperor (or Khorne, in a sense. What passes for disgust amongst Chaos is exclusively Khorne's domain). Slaanesh is similar, but it's more about self-love. Whether that means self-love as in to become perfect unto a god, or self-love in the sense of accepting your disgusting self isn't really defined. I want to say that the second is overlapping too much with Nurgle's sphere, but... The difference between regular slaneeshi hedonism (which is just the word hedonism as everyone commonly uses the word) and Nurglite Hedonism (which is an extremely bizarre, "let the diseases percolate" type thing) is sometimes odd. You are still abusing your body, but the sense [....]<<<<<

If I consider what conflicts Slaanesh and Nurgle have, it would be thus: a follower of Nurgle considering Slaaneshi devotees to be unnecessarily cruel, unaccepting of their normal nature (Slaneeshi self-mutilate too), violent, and uninterested in disease. Slaaneshi followers would consider Nurglites to be disgusting, ugly, fat, uninterested in finer pleasures, interested only in a bizarre acceptance of disease instead of pleasure at all costs. Perhaps the word disgust *is* appropriate here then. I can figure out whether an action is Nurglite or Slaaneshi when close to the line, but when you actually picture the middle-ground, it gets sort of fuzzy. They aren't opposite Gods, after all. Maybe they work together in instances like this. I don't know for sure. Thinking about this is making me lose my appetite, so I stop here.
Could you be explicit?
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6771 on: October 01, 2016, 04:15:08 pm »

I don't know if I go with the freedom idea as much, because a lot of people want they can't obtain without the power of Chaos fueling them. It just about freedom every crack pot cult leader would be becoming a daemon. Although I do agree that it's about appealing to extremes of emotions and beliefs. For people who put something above all else or are so obsessed with something that it defines them and they stop becoming a balanced human being.
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Cergos

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6772 on: October 01, 2016, 04:30:18 pm »

Emperor is unconditional critical love. He's obviously the best.

Unconditional. Except, you know, for the heresy bit.

Isnt slaanesh about embracing your defining attribuites to an extreme?  the overweight gal in this example wouldnt by virtue of being a 'blind date', enpower slaanesh.,

but the slutty outfit and wet sloppy public indecency that followed might

Well the overweight gag is what makes it a Seinfeld joke. Costanza and Seinfeld getting worked up over it is what empowers Slaanesh.

[PHILOSOFAGGOTRY TANGENT]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I haven't read all of the HH books, but I do recall the Emperor being relatively understanding and accepting of his wayward sons, despite their horrible crimes. He wasn't exactly angry at Magnus, and genuinely wanted them back. Horus had to pretty much debase everything he stood for, and then put a gun at his head, to provoke a fitting reaction.
but that does raise the question: can someone still love something that they have to destroy?
...maybe, but It sorta begins to break down with the whole crusade thing, I don't recall any instances of him bawling for each individual Guardsman that was sent on crusade.

However, I couldn't agree more about how the whole approach to the ruinous powers is pretty watered down and crass these days. They don't deal at all with the ambiguity and nuance that makes the powers have that tinge of relatability to human experience. They typically don't take it any further than Chaos=Unbridled Evil, and then proceed to describe corpse racks or some other macabre thing. It is really under-utilizing the strengths of the lore behind it, as what Chaos represents isn't innately evil or even undesirable, especially not at the start; instead, it is evil because that is where it all inevitably leads.
Or maybe I'm just being sophomoric.

Also...you forgot Malal
 8)




 
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nenjin

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6773 on: October 01, 2016, 05:02:14 pm »

Ain't nobody got time for Malal.
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Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
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Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6774 on: October 01, 2016, 05:09:43 pm »

Watching that Deathwing trailer I don't know how I managed to get this far in life without a heavy flamer

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6775 on: October 01, 2016, 08:04:31 pm »

Watching that Deathwing trailer I don't know how I managed to get this far in life without a heavy flamer
A life without Flamer-Sempai is a life not worth living.
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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6776 on: October 01, 2016, 08:38:04 pm »

Just sent a while playing Space Marine for the first time in a few years. Ran around in Chaos Invasion as a Raptor burning Greenskin and Guardsmen alike to ashes with the thermals of my jump packs and cleaving them apart with a power sword. Good times. I need to try and get some friends together to play some of the game proper so I can unlock some of the stuff I had on the console I used to play on.
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Tack

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6777 on: October 01, 2016, 11:51:03 pm »

Firstly, new painted unit, some Tyranid Rippers.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Nice work, once again.
I'm really falling behind here. Haven't painted anything since I finished the pathfinders.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Am trying to muster up effort to do my fire warriors, but the dettol-ing didn't go perfectly and there's still a lot of orange which kills me. Maybe I should move back to tanks for a bit?

Edit: Plus I'm still waiting on a new phone so my picture quality isn't awful [/excuses]
« Last Edit: October 01, 2016, 11:53:41 pm by Tack »
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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6778 on: October 02, 2016, 09:43:26 am »

Also...you forgot Malal
 8)

Since I viewed Chaos as the representation of emotions taken to destructive extreme, I always considered Malal to be the representation of a Knight Templar mindset. It is the inherent desire to purge society of all evil, without any desire to actually implement any good. Thus the ideal Malal cultist would be an Inquisitor.
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Kot

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Re: WH40K thread: wait, 40K has religious overtones?! THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING!
« Reply #6779 on: October 02, 2016, 10:11:11 am »

Nah.
Inquisitors implement plenty of good by removing the evil heretics.
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