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[nenjin]

http://www.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/en

[NullForceOmega]

EDIT: I agree with you about the rounds not being more powerful, though. From the muzzle velocity it looks like, if 40k autoguns do use more powerful propellants, they also use less of them, which would make sense given that the human shoulder hasn't evolved to handle more recoil in the intervening millennia.

This isn't a very good data point but a quick bit of measurement indicates that the length of the magazine (front to back) is around 2 inches, that would mean the bullet is about the same size as a 7.62x39 round by overall length, which would mean it's got more powder than a modern version, but again, not a good data point as it is based on fuzzy measurement of a series of images that are not likely to be realistic.

Found the page with the lasgun calculations, my memory was way off, I had it at around 1400 joules, don't know where the hell my head came up with the 230, as that isn't even close to my numbers here.  Still much lower than the estimate you provided.

Edit: I didn't realize that Armada was coming out this soon either, it looks really good.  Did you pre buy for the beta nenjin?

[Loud Whispers]

http://www.battlefleetgothic-armada.com/en

BFG finally starting to get the love it deserves

[Kot]

I'm pretty sure that any calculation saying Lasgun is equivalent of .22LR went wrong somewhere, presumably in taking any tabletop numbers as a base. Roleplaying ones are eh, but tabletop very much doesn't make sense. As far as regular ammunition goes, you will probably want to look at Stubbers rather than Autoguns. There is some different tries to classify what are the differences, most notable being "Autoguns are caseless", which generally speaking works, but I don't think that's a defining feature of ALL of them, and that in terms of WH40k some of guns may be called this interchangeably. In the end I just guess the main difference is that Autoguns are generally the higher level type of guns, which usually involves them being caseless, maybe with some fancy shit like recoil mitigation, burst fires, maybe even targeting systems, but also presumably firing better projectiles, while stub guns are literally equivalents of many modern day guns (I am pretty sure some PDF world in WH40k has a heavy stubber lying around that still has something around the lines of "Normandy, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Mars" scratched onto it), and I am pretty sure there are references to actual honest-to-God-Emperor 1911s and Thompsons. It should also be noted that Imperial Guard armour should, in general, be actually really good, compared to what we have right now, being essentially the same in terms of how it works (+heat dissipating shit, I guess) except with way better materials.
Anyhow, regarding the Lasguns, I believe their pure killing power is on par with good autoguns, which should be "at least" as powerful as modern day assault rifles, but the Lasgun shots also carry much higher amount of pain and shock for exposed flesh, due to essentially exploding a chunk of someone's body with energy, cauterization or not be damned, which is also why they're comparatively a bit more destructive when it comes to solid materials that aren't particularly good at fast energy absorption.
I'd also contest various claims that Imperial vehicles and in general, all of stuff is bad, because while sure, GW often seems to have absolutely no fucking idea what they're writing and they're giving things like Land Raiders effective armour equivalent of a sheet of metal, but eh, I guess some of it can be bullshited away as materials from the future.

Also, yeah, Battlefleet Gothic. I am a bit sad it involves Nu-Lore, but I guess that's the next logical step. It seems to be very much like previous game, except maybe this time not so... unfinished even after few months (I liked the first one a lot, but I couldn't help but feel that what I'm essentially playing is more of a advanced proof of concept rather than complete game). I really like Imperial Navy, despite them being the unsung asshole heroes of Imperium (say what you want about captains not giving ground support, the pilots of smaller craft are pretty kick-ass), so I have it bought already, which I might regret, but oh well. The only problem is that I have entire tommorow (today, actually) busy, so I'm considering tactical sickness.

[NullForceOmega]

You can contest the claims of vehicle armor all you want, but I'm not budging.  Normal man portable weapons (not space marine weapons) that are not even rated for anti-tank warfare kill Imperial tanks (very poorly, but they still do).  And Eldar tanks, and Tau tanks, and Necron monoliths.  Those man portable weapons are not mechanically more powerful than modern weapons, and you cannot kill a modern tank with those same weapons (you might be able to kill the crew if they aren't buttoned up).

This is obviously for game balance reasons but since the crunch is absolutely the only actual way to make a mechanical comparison, that makes 40k armor an absolute joke until you get into super-heavies.  Now, that said, Imperial air power is serious shit, no modern fighter would stand more than a middling chance, and then only if they unloaded pretty much all of their AA missiles at extreme range and then booked it.  Which probably still wouldn't save them.

I probably won't be picking up Armada 2 anytime soon, but it looks great and when I've worked through my backlog of games I am definitely going to take serious look at it.

[MrRoboto75]

I could have sworn standard lasguns couldn't do shit to AV14 stuff.  But they don't do AV anymore...

[NullForceOmega]

Depends on the edition, some favor armor more, some less.  Eighth makes it go away.

Kot: I did these calculations eight years before Dark Heresy came out, and I don't recall there being any form of 40k RPG around in 2000, so tabletop is the only source I had for numbers, incidentally I do have (half) of the numbers I ran for the heavy stubber, since it is straight up a .50 cal machinegun, and I was pretty much just transcribing and comparing.

[Digital Hellhound]

Emperor had fuck-all (at least directly) with creation of Grey Knights. He approved it, but it was Malcador's pet project. As far as their gene-seed goes, there were quite a few theories. I liked the one, that still implied Alpharius/Omegon would be Janus (which is not a thing, because of course GW has to fuck things up with plot, reee), so their gene-seed would be directly taken from Primarch gene-seed that Alpha Legion stolen during Horus Heresy and that has not been seen ever since. There is a book which says their gene-seed is straight from Emperor, but eh. Remember, everything is canon, not everything is true.

I mean, the current canon has Janus be

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

a Thousand Sons loyalist and a... good-ish? soul shard of Magnus doing the fusion dance

I kinda dig it. Alpharius/Omegon (RIP either-or) being behind everything gets a bit stale, though I can see the appeal in this case. The rest hasn’t been put into text either way, I don’t think. Of course, everyone is free to pick and choose what lore they want to accept, so feel free to hate on that as you like.

[Andres]

In terms of how they work on the battlefield, what's the difference between a soul grinder and a greater daemon? As far as I can tell it's the same but the soul grinder gets a gun on top of whatever they had as a GD.

[Loud Whispers]

You can contest the claims of vehicle armor all you want, but I'm not budging.  Normal man portable weapons (not space marine weapons) that are not even rated for anti-tank warfare kill Imperial tanks (very poorly, but they still do).  And Eldar tanks, and Tau tanks, and Necron monoliths.  Those man portable weapons are not mechanically more powerful than modern weapons, and you cannot kill a modern tank with those same weapons (you might be able to kill the crew if they aren't buttoned up).

This is obviously for game balance reasons but since the crunch is absolutely the only actual way to make a mechanical comparison, that makes 40k armor an absolute joke until you get into super-heavies.  Now, that said, Imperial air power is serious shit, no modern fighter would stand more than a middling chance, and then only if they unloaded pretty much all of their AA missiles at extreme range and then booked it.  Which probably still wouldn't save them.

I probably won't be picking up Armada 2 anytime soon, but it looks great and when I've worked through my backlog of games I am definitely going to take serious look at it.

Working by crunch is pointless, since weapon strength does not scale in a linear fashion at all. The difference between a strength 10 weapon and a strength 9, or even between a strength 5 and 4 weapon, is much more than between a strength 4 and 3 weapon. That's not factoring in things like AP, so for example is a meltagun with S8 AP1 weaker or stronger than a lascannon with S9 AP2? How does a hot-shot lasgun that can burn through power armour S3 AP3 compare to a space marine's bolter S4 AP5? What about between a lascannon and a basic Necron guass rifle? Or a sniper rifle having no strength? You tread the path to madness

*EDIT
Reading the allies matrix it just struck me that the Sisters of Battle despise all xenos & chaos factions (that's a given) and consider Imperial Guard units to be battle brothers (that's adorable), and they consider all space marines and grey knights untrustworthy allies of convenience or worse (that's wise. But also surprising).

I also find it hilarious that the Emps made space marines so humanity would have these power armoured supersoldiers, but because they were reliant on humanity for continued existence they wouldn't rebel. Then they do the worst rebellion the Imperium had ever experienced and ruin everything for the next 10,000 years.
The SOB meanwhile are just regular humans in power armour. Not only do they do the same job without augmentation as the space marines, but they also didn't instantly become team killing fucktards despite having none of the biological limitations / dependencies of space marines.
Space marines suck, the Emperor should have just made SOB legions from the start

[Dorsidwarf]

I also agree that trying to work out lorewise values from the tabletop values is an effort doomed to incoherent and useless results that don’t mean anything. The tabletop is at best a symbolic representation of a battle fought in the lorewise space

[Trekkin]

I also find it hilarious that the Emps made space marines so humanity would have these power armoured supersoldiers, but because they were reliant on humanity for continued existence they wouldn't rebel. Then they do the worst rebellion the Imperium had ever experienced and ruin everything for the next 10,000 years.
The SOB meanwhile are just regular humans in power armour. Not only do they do the same job without augmentation as the space marines, but they also didn't instantly become team killing fucktards despite having none of the biological limitations / dependencies of space marines.
Space marines suck, the Emperor should have just made SOB legions from the start

Oh, the Sisters of Battle would have done a fine job conquering and even ruling the Imperium, but that was not what the Emperor wanted. Building the Imperium was what the little people did with the rubble left behind from his galaxy-spanning genocide spree, because he was a bloodthirsty monster. Whether or not he actually was Alexander the Great, he certainly had the ego to see himself as an Alexander-like figure and therefore to view Alexander's troops' refusal to conquer India, however apocryphal, as a cautionary tale: men would eventually grow weary of war.

Space Marines are not men. They have their humanity cut out to make room for more organs, and the Primarchs are doubly far removed. They do not grow too old to fight, and have no desire to do anything else -- reinforced, in extremis, by all those biological dependencies. Nor are they even designed to do the calmer parts of war. Logistics is what serfs are for.

Plan A was to purify the galaxy at the head of a band of superhuman weapons who'd laud his victories, share in his bloodshed and regard him as their literal father to be adulated even for genocide. Plan B was to replace those original twenty bros with smaller, less superhuman mini-bros, but to have lots and lots of them to cheer him on to make up for it. Plan B.2 involved the human-built Webway, and I am still not entirely convinced that its collapse and the subsequent never-ending battle on Terra was entirely an accident.

[Tack]

I of course attribute their resistance to chaos to the fact that Emps clearly spliced their geneseed with broodmind DNA.

I think it's most likely just the fact that they're all recruited from psykers

No way dude, psykers are the most susceptible- that's why librarians have to wear the hoods. As you said above, Grey Knights owe their resistance to the psychic bond. Every member of the squad is being continually monitored by every other member... Much like some kind of gestalt GSC hive mind. I mean, they can also merge themselves in order to cast spells, something no other humans can seemingly do.
If you take it to the tabletop, it becomes even more glaring. The difference between an imperial guardsman and a genestealer neophyte guardsman? a floating +1 Leadership.
The difference between a Space Marine and a Grey Knight? the same +1 Leadership.

I posit that Grey Knights were made when someone took something of the Alien and used it in order to make a soldier to fight Daemons, which is why they're super secret and nobody can know because 1. Chaos is pervasive and the less people who know about daemons the better and 2. Nobody wants a Magos Biologis taking too close a look at them. Afaik they don't pay the geneseed tithe either.

[nenjin]

Likwise, I'm beginning to believe that the Life Eater virus may be Xenos or Daemonic in origin.

[Andres]

What does "daemonifuge" mean? It's both the name of a book and the section in Enemies Beyond that covers equipment and gear and such.