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[Kot]

Chaos truly Undivided.

[Egan_BW]

True neutral undivided.

[Kot]

Well, that'd be the case if we went by the old WHFB fluff of having, well, Chaos Gods of Order, thus actually meaning there's an offset to Chaos, which would mean a mix would be just True Neutral, but considering that was long ago and even less canonical when it comes to WH40k than WHFB, people presume Emperor being an actual God in the same sense as Chaos Gods, would mean he'd be a Chaos God too, not some being associated with Order.
If we though considered stuff like Eldar Gods and the rest also working off the same rules somehow, and return to the original idea of background struggle between Chaos and Order (please don't even start anything about AoS), then it'd be True Neutral. As it stands right now though, with that idea long in the grave or in case of AoS, long in being turned into retardation, the Order side of spectrum doesn't exactly exist, and while the beings such as Emperor would fit in there more, I don't think there's an actual difference as it is, so he'd just be a Chaos God too, resulting in Chaos Undivided, not True Neutral Undivided.

[Egan_BW]

Neither chaos nor order are specific opposed forces in warhammer, unlike in DnD. The current gods are only "chaos" gods because they happen to preside over a chaotic realm. Not a realm that's been overtaken by a force of chaos, mind, but one that's simply fallen to entropy and the violent nature of realspace.

Things once were ordered. Now, they are chaotic. You might say that the imperium and emperor represent "order", but that's not because they're fundamental beings of order but because they have rules and try to impose order on the naturally chaotic universe. In contrast, the chaos gods simply allow the universe to be chaotic rather than fighting it.

So, if the entire universe leans towards chaos, then chaos is neutrality, at least if you're ignoring the fact that it was less chaotic before the war in heaven.


I'm basically treating the word chaos as a synonym for "fucked" as far as WH40K goes. Seems like it fits. The fucked-up gods. The warp, realm of fuckedness. Sorcerers harnessing the power of fuckery.

[Kot]

Chaos and "Order" (apparently the term was Law, I was a bit off, but that's what I remember) were specific opposed forces in old WHFB, and I think they are in AoS. The term was still Chaos Gods of Law, funnily enough, but there was an idea of "Good" counters to the Chaos Gods. That idea has kind of died-off over the years, and while I am pretty sure it was never outright denied, like many other things, and there are still some small references there and there, it's not really a thing anymore. As far as WH40K approach, presumably Emperor, in his "God" state, when and if he achieves that, would represent a Chaos Gods of Law. If it were anything like old WHFB though, there wouldn't be one specific Chaos God of Order, but a whole array, in which case Emperor would just be the newest addition. While old Eldar gods could be shoe-horned in that role, as at least some of them are kind of a "better" version of Chaos Gods, I don't think 40k was ever created with the idea of Chaos Gods of Law being a thing, since it turned to just Chaos Gods having more of a positive side, at least in theory.

Of course Chaos isn't the neutral and natural state of Galaxy. Before the whole War in Heaven and Enslavers and all other random Warp beings, Warp was stable and while I don't think it was particularly ordered, it was there. When Old Ones came by, they started introducing Order, in form of, for example, Webway, which is like a stable-ish Warp. War in Heaven destabilized it towards Chaos, and ultimately it resulted in a snowball effect. This is why I would never consider True Chaos anything close to neutrality, and (seriously, the term is fucking retarded and people get wrong ideas) the same applies to Chaos Gods of Law, or, just generally, Order. However since presumed deities that represent Law and Order, instead of Chaos, still take their power from The Immaterium, which the common name (or rather, denonym?) for is Chaos (thus, Chaos Gods of Law, not because they're chaotic, but because they come from the same place as Chaos), then an amalgamation of that would mean that it'd be Chaos (or rather Immaterium) Undivided in the form where it also takes into account Lawful deities. So, surely, that would actually put the ending result as True Neutral, as they should balance each other out.

However, since the Chaos Gods of Law are not anything that'd be canonical right now (though their existence or perhaps, future existence isn't ruled out), that means there are only chaotic Chaos deities, and Emperor isn't actually a Chaos God of Law, just an interchangeable version of some other Chaos Gods and Eldar Gods are just some weird facets of Chaos Gods, and Gork and Morks are, well, I don't know, whatever, Orky versions of some weird Khorne/Tzzentchian gay pairing, it ends up as only Chaos, which is certainly not neutral in that state, resulting in just a Chaos Warband that just believes in Chaos in an extremely Undivided fashion where they just consider every deity some version of Chaotic deities, adding to each other, even taking into account stupid shit like Void Dragon which clearly is not an actual God in the same sense Chaos Gods are, to which title Emperor comes the closest out of all not-Chaos God beings right now.

This is fucking medieval scholasticism at it's most absurd. How many Warp Storms can Emperor fit on a head of a needle?

[Egan_BW]

You just basically said that if you happen to pile everything else in with chaos, then everything is chaos.
And if they're called chaos gods of law, wouldn't that make the classic gods "chaos gods of chaos"?

But yeah, the warp is currently in a fucked up chaotic state. But it has been for so long that we may as well call chaos its natural state at this point. The warp is permanently fucked, and that reflects the real world being permanently fucked. So if everything's fucked and there's no indication that that's going to stop anytime soon, we may as well call fuckedness the neutral state of the world. The world has reached its equilibrium, and that just so happens to be chaotic by the standards of ancient beings who lived billions of years ago.

[Tack]

Don't Word Bearers do a 'god of the week' thing? I wonder if they do ever touch on Gork 'n Mork or stray back to the Emperor for a week 'cos fuck you dad you're getting worshipped now aren't ya.

[Teneb]

Snip

In WHFB it was Order vs Destruction.

[Kot]

You just basically said that if you happen to pile everything else in with chaos, then everything is chaos.
And if they're called chaos gods of law, wouldn't that make the classic gods "chaos gods of chaos"?

As I said, since modern Chaos Gods represent both the chaotic and lawful (Khorne being, well, Khorne, but technically also stuff like honor), then there is no real distinction between one and another, since both are pieces of the same thing, thus, that would all be Chaos.

But yeah, the warp is currently in a fucked up chaotic state. But it has been for so long that we may as well call chaos its natural state at this point. The warp is permanently fucked, and that reflects the real world being permanently fucked. So if everything's fucked and there's no indication that that's going to stop anytime soon, we may as well call fuckedness the neutral state of the world. The world has reached its equilibrium, and that just so happens to be chaotic by the standards of ancient beings who lived billions of years ago.

I wouldn't call Warp permanently fucked (neither I would call real world so), and while it is the state right now, has been for long and will probably be for even longer, that is not it's natural state. Just because the seesaw rusted and is now stuck in one position doesn't mean it's the neutral one. We also have the comfort of being able to talk about this from outside, knowing at least majority of variables, thus "standards of ancient beings" aren't what we use to judge how the Warp is, but rather the fact that original Warp didn't have beings that embody tentacle rape, and that original Warp lacked ordered places such as Webway.

[Tack]

Isn’t the warp roiled by the emotions of psychic races, of which Humans are becoming more and moreso?

Past either the annihilation of Everyone except T’au (specific castes) Nids and Necrons, or a second god being born, I can’t see it going stable any time soon.

[Kot]

Nah, T'au probably on the genocide list as well. If one of them became Khornate, that means if hard pressed enough, they can probably be exploited by Chaos (if there were no easier targets like Humans). Nids do apparently have some form of connection, since they are able to do some Warp stuff, though it's open question if they actually do posses anything that Warp could feed off. Individuals are most certainly too animalistic, but since they essentially work as brain when together (thus, Hive Mind), there might be more to it, but even then, that's unknown both in lore and out of it. And yeah that's about one solution that's openly known. There might be more Emperor bullshit though, like accessing, maintaining and expanding the Webway, which will not remove chaotic Chaos all-together but might help contain it.

[Egan_BW]

The imperium probably would be more stable and less susceptible to chaotic chaos if they had webway travel. Less hearing whispers and watching the walls bleed, at the least.

Which might create a positive feedback loop, where the chaos gods of chaos lose their ability to corrupt so many humans, and thus become weaker, and thus lose even more influence. There are enough humans around that a big enough change in human culture would actually cause a shift in the nature of the warp. Bringing the fuckery back down to pre slannesh levels, maybe.

[Teneb]

The obvious solution is to figure out how the Orks send all their energy exclusively to their gods and do the same.

[Egan_BW]

Splice some ork genes into humans. Bam, no more chaos. And the IG gets a bonus to combat efficiency due to the waaaaaaaghs.

[Tack]

I mean Perturabo was born with Orky know-what’s.