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Poll

Should freshly entering mages be given +10/+10 worth of random essences?

Yes
- 19 (46.3%)
No
- 9 (22%)
It should be more than that
- 6 (14.6%)
It should be less than that
- 7 (17.1%)

Total Members Voted: 41


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Author Topic: Roll to Magic: Turn 268 The finish line  (Read 1264281 times)

Elephant Parade

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3855 on: November 23, 2015, 08:21:10 pm »

((... moreover, essences limit powerful spells- the castle would never have been made if essences were that restricted.))
((Did you not read my proposal? You can spend multiple essences if you spend multiple turns casting, meaning the castle would have been quite possible, if time-consuming. On second thought, allowing an exponential number of essences [1 for a one-turn spell, 4 for a two-turn spell, etc.] might work better; if it was linear, interruptions would quickly become a huge problem. I think that at 3 turns, you should be able to use an unlimited number of essences.))

Quote
((This may just help your argument, but it's quite possible to make more than 3 essences per turn. 3 is just a median.))
((Honestly, it doesn't make too much of a difference—as long as you can spam crafting, there's not much of a difference between crafting 3 essences per turn, 4 per turn, 2 per turn, or whatever.))

Quote
((As for large advantage- yes, definitely. Essences are a major difference between a powerful player and a weak one. Is there anything wrong with that?))
((I think so. This is pretty much what this whole debate is about, honestly, so it would make sense that we have different opinions.))
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 08:22:47 pm by Elephant Parade »
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3856 on: November 23, 2015, 08:23:29 pm »

((... moreover, essences limit powerful spells- the castle would never have been made if essences were that restricted.))
((Did you not read my proposal? You can spend multiple essences if you spend multiple turns casting, meaning the castle would have been quite possible.))
((I did read it. The castle would have been possible, sure, but it still would never have been made- the peoples of the duck would not have been willing to stick around so long in order to make it, and thus it would not have been made.))

((Okay, so what's wrong with having essences being the major difference between a powerful player and a weak one?))
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Elephant Parade

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3857 on: November 23, 2015, 08:26:46 pm »

Quote
((I did read it. The castle would have been possible, sure, but it still would never have been made- the peoples of the duck would not have been willing to stick around so long in order to make it, and thus it would not have been made.))
((Read the edit. A mere two-turn spell would have allowed for four essences each, which... uh, I don't actually know if it'd have been enough. Could you link me to the post, please?

Honestly, I think that essences are mainly a problem when it comes to combat spells, and are otherwise less of an issue, if still a bit overpowered.))

Quote
((Okay, so what's wrong with having essences being the major difference between a powerful player and a weak one?))
((The number of essences you have, at any given time, depends primarily on the number of essences you've created—that is, the number of turns you've spent spamming essences, rather than doing something more interesting.))
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3858 on: November 23, 2015, 08:37:26 pm »

((Read the edit. A mere two-turn spell would have allowed for four essences each, which... uh, I don't actually know if it'd have been enough. Could you link me to the post, please?
((I looked back and it looked like 4 essences would not have been enough per player(the essence user with the most input put in 43 POT from essences), in any case that would not have fit within 4 essences. If you say 3 turns means any number of essences are usable, sure that would be possible to cast the castle... but it's a matter of psychology- all those mages packed in for 3 turns might end rather badly(combat!!!)))

((Note that you're allowed to make essences in the background- Old King Coal is making essences while exploring an underground temple at the same time.))

((As for the combat spells problem... why not make focus more of a factor? Casting using essences will require more focus/concentration and becomes more difficult to do without a collapse when casting in combat.))

((Also, quote:))

POT [4+1+43+5+1+2+1+5+1+4+6+2+1+1+5+3+1+1+5+1+1+3+2+5+4+7+2+1+8=126]
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Elephant Parade

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3859 on: November 23, 2015, 08:59:32 pm »

-snip-
Was 126 POT remotely necessary, though? Also, you could allow +1 essence per involved player, making things like the castle still possible.

And again, I think that  essences only absolutely, positively need to be seriously weakened in regards to combat, because that really shouldn't be decided by who's been playing longer/lurking longer/gotten in a fight less recently. Out of combat, I still think essences need a nerf, but not such a severe one.

What's focus? I honestly was not aware that mechanic existed.

Quote
((Note that you're allowed to make essences in the background- Old King Coal is making essences while exploring an underground temple at the same time.))
If you're fighting, that isn't possible. Also, again, adding "make essences" to every action gets annoying. It's not
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Whisperling

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3860 on: November 23, 2015, 09:10:29 pm »


Pre-edit: People voting "no, they are fine": do you really want player-versus-player combat to be a battle of essences? With unlimited essence use, established players have a huge advantage; this is on top of the advantage they get from higher stats/extra affinities/+CMP/whatever.

To answer your question: No, I just want to be able to cast interesting spells without wasting twenty turns on failures/essences/rituals. Sorry if that's a little harsh to your proposal; I tend to be hostile to essence nerfs because of how they would impact my ideal playstyle.

That said, you raise some good points. Rituals and doom spells are both things that should be addressed.

With that in mind, here are some of my own thoughts.


Spoiler: Rituals (click to show/hide)
______________

To answer more recent discussion:

I agree that essences tend to be a bit grindy and boring, but I do want a way to create an item or cast a spell without spending large periods of time doing something in which I have no real involvement, or with the possibility of wasting a lot of time and effort for nothing.

Should someone offer a good alternative, I'm all ears. But, until that happens, I consider essences to be the lesser of two evils.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2015, 09:12:10 pm by Whisperling »
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ATHATH

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3861 on: November 23, 2015, 09:58:16 pm »

Making essences involve more LUCK rolls would increase the Gambler's power, though.
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fillipk

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3862 on: November 23, 2015, 10:13:50 pm »

((Hmm, yes I think essences need to be reworked, but I want a way to cast big spells, I like the idea of a ritual it would make us interact more with each other and the various NPCs.  I think elephant parade's nerf is too much maybe we could put a cap on the amount of essences you can have per affinity say 10 and then allow us to use thematic materials to boost our spells too.

On a totally unrelated note who's character is a virgin?))
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3863 on: November 23, 2015, 10:19:35 pm »

Instead of a universal nerf, why not restrict the use of essences in combat, where they’re most problematic? Under normal circumstances, duels are very fast-paced, and logic states that a well-though-out doom spell shouldn’t be cast at the drop of a hat. Using a large number of essences on a time-sensitive spell could prompt a LUCK roll to see whether the spell takes up the entire turn (leaving nor room/concentration for dodging and such), leaks power, breaks down, or even backfires because there simply isn’t time to include all the information your +CMP essences want to stuff in.

It may be possible to encourage the use of chaotic essences by making them exempt from these restrictions- if they decide to help, of course.
((This. If essences need some sort of nerf, this needs to be it.))
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DAPARROT

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3864 on: November 23, 2015, 11:07:19 pm »

((On a totally unrelated note who's character is a virgin?))

((Not mine,alcohol and harpies do not mix))
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ATHATH

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3865 on: November 23, 2015, 11:26:03 pm »

((Hmm, yes I think essences need to be reworked, but I want a way to cast big spells, I like the idea of a ritual it would make us interact more with each other and the various NPCs.  I think elephant parade's nerf is too much maybe we could put a cap on the amount of essences you can have per affinity say 10 and then allow us to use thematic materials to boost our spells too.

On a totally unrelated note who's character is a virgin?))
As it turns out, chicks do not dig psychopaths.
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*slow clap* Well ATHATH congratulations. You managed to give the MC a mental breakdown before we even finished the first arc.
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AoshimaMichio

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3866 on: November 24, 2015, 12:42:45 am »

I don't like essences at all. They turn the game into little more than a grind-fest. People spend actions laying low and making essences instead of casting actual magic or doing anything that requires thought or risk. They've completely replace the original magic system which required actual though and creativity to use. Instead of thinking of a spell, figuring out how closely it relates to your affinity and applying bonuses and negatives, it's just grind until you have enough power then nuke shit. It means whoever has more time to grind wins most of the time instead of who's more skilled and creative.

The problem essences were made to solve was that there was no way to cast big spells. I think a system where we can cast a normal spell, then continuously modify or add more power to it until it's a big spell would be much more interesting and more balanced.

My thoughts exactly. Essences remove the need to think spell modifiers. All you need to do is to slap enough essences in and you are on your way to success. And then you spend few turns charging your essence pool.

I would probably limit amount of essences one can have at any given time. Probably 10. That way you have to think more carefully when to use essences. But this still leaves problem with big doom spells. Solution to this could be ritual spells. Multiturn spells with expotential power to turns performed. Further multiplied with multiple casters. So if one turn spell has power of 1, two turn has 4, three turn 9, four turn 16. Math would be x2 where x is number of turns spent casting. Adding more casters would be x2*n2 where n is number of casters. Numbers need to be tweaked but anyway, it would encourage cooperation for massive spells.

Another thought would be to record spells into storage crystal. Spend few turns casting massive spell and store it into crystal to be unleashed later instantly. Another use for shards, maybe?
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H4zardZ1

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3867 on: November 24, 2015, 04:06:42 am »

Making essences involve more LUCK rolls would increase the Gambler's power, though.
Quote from: Endlessblaze
GM nerfs something
players found a workaround in the nerf
Hum
I don't like essences at all. They turn the game into little more than a grind-fest. People spend actions laying low and making essences instead of casting actual magic or doing anything that requires thought or risk. They've completely replace the original magic system which required actual though and creativity to use. Instead of thinking of a spell, figuring out how closely it relates to your affinity and applying bonuses and negatives, it's just grind until you have enough power then nuke shit. It means whoever has more time to grind wins most of the time instead of who's more skilled and creative.

The problem essences were made to solve was that there was no way to cast big spells. I think a system where we can cast a normal spell, then continuously modify or add more power to it until it's a big spell would be much more interesting and more balanced.

My thoughts exactly. Essences remove the need to think spell modifiers. All you need to do is to slap enough essences in and you are on your way to success. And then you spend few turns charging your essence pool.

I would probably limit amount of essences one can have at any given time. Probably 10. That way you have to think more carefully when to use essences. But this still leaves problem with big doom spells. Solution to this could be ritual spells. Multiturn spells with expotential power to turns performed. Further multiplied with multiple casters. So if one turn spell has power of 1, two turn has 4, three turn 9, four turn 16. Math would be x2 where x is number of turns spent casting. Adding more casters would be x2*n2 where n is number of casters. Numbers need to be tweaked but anyway, it would encourage cooperation for massive spells.

Another thought would be to record spells into storage crystal. Spend few turns casting massive spell and store it into crystal to be unleashed later instantly. Another use for shards, maybe?
Charging should be like this:
Code: [Select]
Total roll turn 1*(Total roll turn 2 -1)*(Total roll turn 3 -2) and so on (if any of the total roll is <1, collapse the spell)
If charging, divide any physical except resisting damage roll in half , rounded down. Also, the same amount of essences must be used each turn for charging(eg. using no essences to start the charge meaning you can't use it at all during charge).
This should be added on the things to vote:
((In essences, it should take twice CMP at roll to get the same bonus at POT.))
Or really, just use the LUCK roll at CMP:
Code: [Select]
(CMP essences bonus*LUCK roll):10(rounded down) and if CMP essences bonus is more than 15(before equation) also do this: Total CMP roll:(5+((Total POT roll-11):4(If Total POT roll is less that 15, then remove Total POT roll and the subtraction by 15))-LUCK roll)(rounded down) (if the divider is <2, don't divide it)But as said by ATHATH, it increases the Gambler's power.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2015, 06:38:08 am by H4zardZ1 »
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star2wars3

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3868 on: November 24, 2015, 06:20:01 am »

((I like the idea of ritual spells being added into the game except that too an extent, they already exist. Vortex Bane wasn't forged in 1 turn and I am still adding new layers to it))
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FallacyofUrist

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Re: Roll to Magic: Turn 131 Anticlimatic impacts
« Reply #3869 on: November 24, 2015, 09:12:38 am »

((I feel that many of the purposed nerfs are... a bit too much for my taste))

((But...))
Instead of a universal nerf, why not restrict the use of essences in combat, where they’re most problematic? Under normal circumstances, duels are very fast-paced, and logic states that a well-though-out doom spell shouldn’t be cast at the drop of a hat. Using a large number of essences on a time-sensitive spell could prompt a LUCK roll to see whether the spell takes up the entire turn (leaving nor room/concentration for dodging and such), leaks power, breaks down, or even backfires because there simply isn’t time to include all the information your +CMP essences want to stuff in.

It may be possible to encourage the use of chaotic essences by making them exempt from these restrictions- if they decide to help, of course.
((Building on this... how about this:))

((How about this: there is to be no cap on the number of essences that a given player can store, and there is to be no cap on how many can be used... but in combat, here's what I suggest: if a player casts a spell in combat using essences, they get a -1 to dodge attacks for that turn for every two non-chaotic essences used(chaotic essences don't do this). If a player is hit only because of that dodge malus.... for instance 5 vs. 6-3(6 essences on doom spell), the player loses 2x CMP on their spell(either that or they just get a luck roll or endurance roll to keep the spell from collapsing), where x is the attack targeting roll minus the total dodge roll(malus taken into account).))
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