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Yes

19 (46.3%)

No

9 (22%)

It should be more than that

6 (14.6%)

It should be less than that

7 (17.1%)

Total Members Voted: 41

[Elephant Parade]

((... moreover, essences limit powerful spells- the castle would never have been made if essences were that restricted.))

((Did you not read my proposal? You can spend multiple essences if you spend multiple turns casting, meaning the castle would have been quite possible, if time-consuming. On second thought, allowing an exponential number of essences [1 for a one-turn spell, 4 for a two-turn spell, etc.] might work better; if it was linear, interruptions would quickly become a huge problem. I think that at 3 turns, you should be able to use an unlimited number of essences.))

((This may just help your argument, but it's quite possible to make more than 3 essences per turn. 3 is just a median.))

((Honestly, it doesn't make too much of a difference—as long as you can spam crafting, there's not much of a difference between crafting 3 essences per turn, 4 per turn, 2 per turn, or whatever.))

((As for large advantage- yes, definitely. Essences are a major difference between a powerful player and a weak one. Is there anything wrong with that?))

((I think so. This is pretty much what this whole debate is about, honestly, so it would make sense that we have different opinions.))

[FallacyofUrist]

((... moreover, essences limit powerful spells- the castle would never have been made if essences were that restricted.))

((Did you not read my proposal? You can spend multiple essences if you spend multiple turns casting, meaning the castle would have been quite possible.))

((I did read it. The castle would have been possible, sure, but it still would never have been made- the peoples of the duck would not have been willing to stick around so long in order to make it, and thus it would not have been made.))

((Okay, so what's wrong with having essences being the major difference between a powerful player and a weak one?))

[Elephant Parade]

((I did read it. The castle would have been possible, sure, but it still would never have been made- the peoples of the duck would not have been willing to stick around so long in order to make it, and thus it would not have been made.))

((Read the edit. A mere two-turn spell would have allowed for four essences each, which... uh, I don't actually know if it'd have been enough. Could you link me to the post, please?

Honestly, I think that essences are mainly a problem when it comes to combat spells, and are otherwise less of an issue, if still a bit overpowered.))

((Okay, so what's wrong with having essences being the major difference between a powerful player and a weak one?))

((The number of essences you have, at any given time, depends primarily on the number of essences you've created—that is, the number of turns you've spent spamming essences, rather than doing something more interesting.))

[FallacyofUrist]

((Read the edit. A mere two-turn spell would have allowed for four essences each, which... uh, I don't actually know if it'd have been enough. Could you link me to the post, please?

((I looked back and it looked like 4 essences would not have been enough per player(the essence user with the most input put in 43 POT from essences), in any case that would not have fit within 4 essences. If you say 3 turns means any number of essences are usable, sure that would be possible to cast the castle... but it's a matter of psychology- all those mages packed in for 3 turns might end rather badly(combat!!!)))

((Note that you're allowed to make essences in the background- Old King Coal is making essences while exploring an underground temple at the same time.))

((As for the combat spells problem... why not make focus more of a factor? Casting using essences will require more focus/concentration and becomes more difficult to do without a collapse when casting in combat.))

((Also, quote:))

POT [4+1+43+5+1+2+1+5+1+4+6+2+1+1+5+3+1+1+5+1+1+3+2+5+4+7+2+1+8=126]

[Elephant Parade]

-snip-

Was 126 POT remotely necessary, though? Also, you could allow +1 essence per involved player, making things like the castle still possible.

And again, I think that  essences only absolutely, positively need to be seriously weakened in regards to combat, because that really shouldn't be decided by who's been playing longer/lurking longer/gotten in a fight less recently. Out of combat, I still think essences need a nerf, but not such a severe one.

What's focus? I honestly was not aware that mechanic existed.

((Note that you're allowed to make essences in the background- Old King Coal is making essences while exploring an underground temple at the same time.))

If you're fighting, that isn't possible. Also, again, adding "make essences" to every action gets annoying. It's not

[Whisperling]

Spoiler: Alternate essence system proposal (click to show/hide)

1. You may only create one essence per turn, because the alternative is pretty ridiculous. To keep the risk/reward aspect, you could impose a CMP penalty on yourself in exchange for a POT/essence power bonus.
2. You may only use a number of essences on a spell equal to the number of turns you spend casting it. This would allow for "ritual"-style spells to gain large bonuses through essence use—if there was no way to gain large bonuses, "great" spells would be impossible—but prevent +10/+10 instakill lightning bolts of doom, unless they were somehow prepared beforehand.
3. (optional) Since both the creation and use of essences would be so much more restricted, I think it'd be fun if you could use others' essences; I am incredibly biased, however, since I have plans involving essence trading.

Pre-edit: People voting "no, they are fine": do you really want player-versus-player combat to be a battle of essences? With unlimited essence use, established players have a huge advantage; this is on top of the advantage they get from higher stats/extra affinities/+CMP/whatever.

To answer your question: No, I just want to be able to cast interesting spells without wasting twenty turns on failures/essences/rituals. Sorry if that's a little harsh to your proposal; I tend to be hostile to essence nerfs because of how they would impact my ideal playstyle.

That said, you raise some good points. Rituals and doom spells are both things that should be addressed.

With that in mind, here are some of my own thoughts.

Spoiler: Essences and doom spells (click to show/hide)

Instead of a universal nerf, why not restrict the use of essences in combat, where they’re most problematic? Under normal circumstances, duels are very fast-paced, and logic states that a well-though-out doom spell shouldn’t be cast at the drop of a hat. Using a large number of essences on a time-sensitive spell could prompt a LUCK roll to see whether the spell takes up the entire turn (leaving nor room/concentration for dodging and such), leaks power, breaks down, or even backfires because there simply isn’t time to include all the information your +CMP essences want to stuff in.

It may be possible to encourage the use of chaotic essences by making them exempt from these restrictions- if they decide to help, of course.

Spoiler: Rituals (click to show/hide)

Then, there is the matter of ritual spellcasting. I feel that this has the potential to be a very nice system if done correctly, but it could also be very boring. After all, who wants to waste two weeks’ worth of turns on “keep casting the spell?”

Ritual spellcasting should take a while (hence the name), but it should also be an interesting, interactive process. Think, for a moment, of the picture which appears in your head when you think of the word “ritual.” Chances are, you will think of a long, elaborate series of actions, performed with circles of arcane symbols, sinister candles, and possibly even bloodstains. If an RTD has included that kind of ritual, I can only imagine it was more interesting than a mage standing around and doing nothing.

While that particular image may not be the best fit for Roll to Magic, I think it would certainly be possible to combine the best of both worlds.
Just for the sake of brainstorming, here are a few ideas:

-For each turn you continue to perform the ritual, you may make one action or sacrifice one object (magical or otherwise) to the spell. This may boost its power, alter its structure, or have some other, more mysterious effect. To help keep things interesting, this process should produce some visible result or feedback even before the final spell is cast.

-Perhaps casting through a ritual would allow you to invite more powerful entities (such as gods, volcano spirits, and the like) to influence your spell? They could provide power, or enhance the ritual with their own spheres, but in return, they could take something from you, sway your spell towards their own ends, or, if they would rather not help you out, simply make your ritual collapse in a disastrous manner.

-Players could discover or research pre-made rituals, which, with the proper magic, could be used to cast particularly interesting spells. This probably would be a “secondary” system, but it could be an interesting, LUCK-based source of sidequests.

______________

To answer more recent discussion:

I agree that essences tend to be a bit grindy and boring, but I do want a way to create an item or cast a spell without spending large periods of time doing something in which I have no real involvement, or with the possibility of wasting a lot of time and effort for nothing.

Should someone offer a good alternative, I'm all ears. But, until that happens, I consider essences to be the lesser of two evils.

[ATHATH]

Making essences involve more LUCK rolls would increase the Gambler's power, though.

[fillipk]

((Hmm, yes I think essences need to be reworked, but I want a way to cast big spells, I like the idea of a ritual it would make us interact more with each other and the various NPCs.  I think elephant parade's nerf is too much maybe we could put a cap on the amount of essences you can have per affinity say 10 and then allow us to use thematic materials to boost our spells too.

On a totally unrelated note who's character is a virgin?))

[FallacyofUrist]

Instead of a universal nerf, why not restrict the use of essences in combat, where they’re most problematic? Under normal circumstances, duels are very fast-paced, and logic states that a well-though-out doom spell shouldn’t be cast at the drop of a hat. Using a large number of essences on a time-sensitive spell could prompt a LUCK roll to see whether the spell takes up the entire turn (leaving nor room/concentration for dodging and such), leaks power, breaks down, or even backfires because there simply isn’t time to include all the information your +CMP essences want to stuff in.

It may be possible to encourage the use of chaotic essences by making them exempt from these restrictions- if they decide to help, of course.

((This. If essences need some sort of nerf, this needs to be it.))

[DAPARROT]

((On a totally unrelated note who's character is a virgin?))

((Not mine,alcohol and harpies do not mix))

[ATHATH]

((Hmm, yes I think essences need to be reworked, but I want a way to cast big spells, I like the idea of a ritual it would make us interact more with each other and the various NPCs.  I think elephant parade's nerf is too much maybe we could put a cap on the amount of essences you can have per affinity say 10 and then allow us to use thematic materials to boost our spells too.

On a totally unrelated note who's character is a virgin?))

As it turns out, chicks do not dig psychopaths.

[AoshimaMichio]

I don't like essences at all. They turn the game into little more than a grind-fest. People spend actions laying low and making essences instead of casting actual magic or doing anything that requires thought or risk. They've completely replace the original magic system which required actual though and creativity to use. Instead of thinking of a spell, figuring out how closely it relates to your affinity and applying bonuses and negatives, it's just grind until you have enough power then nuke shit. It means whoever has more time to grind wins most of the time instead of who's more skilled and creative.

The problem essences were made to solve was that there was no way to cast big spells. I think a system where we can cast a normal spell, then continuously modify or add more power to it until it's a big spell would be much more interesting and more balanced.

My thoughts exactly. Essences remove the need to think spell modifiers. All you need to do is to slap enough essences in and you are on your way to success. And then you spend few turns charging your essence pool.

I would probably limit amount of essences one can have at any given time. Probably 10. That way you have to think more carefully when to use essences. But this still leaves problem with big doom spells. Solution to this could be ritual spells. Multiturn spells with expotential power to turns performed. Further multiplied with multiple casters. So if one turn spell has power of 1, two turn has 4, three turn 9, four turn 16. Math would be x² where x is number of turns spent casting. Adding more casters would be x²*n² where n is number of casters. Numbers need to be tweaked but anyway, it would encourage cooperation for massive spells.

Another thought would be to record spells into storage crystal. Spend few turns casting massive spell and store it into crystal to be unleashed later instantly. Another use for shards, maybe?

[H4zardZ1]

Making essences involve more LUCK rolls would increase the Gambler's power, though.

GM nerfs something
players found a workaround in the nerf

Hum

I don't like essences at all. They turn the game into little more than a grind-fest. People spend actions laying low and making essences instead of casting actual magic or doing anything that requires thought or risk. They've completely replace the original magic system which required actual though and creativity to use. Instead of thinking of a spell, figuring out how closely it relates to your affinity and applying bonuses and negatives, it's just grind until you have enough power then nuke shit. It means whoever has more time to grind wins most of the time instead of who's more skilled and creative.

The problem essences were made to solve was that there was no way to cast big spells. I think a system where we can cast a normal spell, then continuously modify or add more power to it until it's a big spell would be much more interesting and more balanced.

My thoughts exactly. Essences remove the need to think spell modifiers. All you need to do is to slap enough essences in and you are on your way to success. And then you spend few turns charging your essence pool.

I would probably limit amount of essences one can have at any given time. Probably 10. That way you have to think more carefully when to use essences. But this still leaves problem with big doom spells. Solution to this could be ritual spells. Multiturn spells with expotential power to turns performed. Further multiplied with multiple casters. So if one turn spell has power of 1, two turn has 4, three turn 9, four turn 16. Math would be x² where x is number of turns spent casting. Adding more casters would be x²*n² where n is number of casters. Numbers need to be tweaked but anyway, it would encourage cooperation for massive spells.

Another thought would be to record spells into storage crystal. Spend few turns casting massive spell and store it into crystal to be unleashed later instantly. Another use for shards, maybe?

Charging should be like this:

Code: [Select]

Total roll turn 1*(Total roll turn 2 -1)*(Total roll turn 3 -2) and so on (if any of the total roll is <1, collapse the spell)
If charging, divide any physical except resisting damage roll in half , rounded down. Also, the same amount of essences must be used each turn for charging(eg. using no essences to start the charge meaning you can't use it at all during charge).This should be added on the things to vote:

((In essences, it should take twice CMP at roll to get the same bonus at POT.))

Or really, just use the LUCK roll at CMP:

Code: [Select]

(CMP essences bonus*LUCK roll):10(rounded down) and if CMP essences bonus is more than 15(before equation) also do this: Total CMP roll:(5+((Total POT roll-11):4(If Total POT roll is less that 15, then remove Total POT roll and the subtraction by 15))-LUCK roll)(rounded down) (if the divider is <2, don't divide it)But as said by ATHATH, it increases the Gambler's power.

[star2wars3]

((I like the idea of ritual spells being added into the game except that too an extent, they already exist. Vortex Bane wasn't forged in 1 turn and I am still adding new layers to it))

[FallacyofUrist]

((I feel that many of the purposed nerfs are... a bit too much for my taste))

((But...))

Instead of a universal nerf, why not restrict the use of essences in combat, where they’re most problematic? Under normal circumstances, duels are very fast-paced, and logic states that a well-though-out doom spell shouldn’t be cast at the drop of a hat. Using a large number of essences on a time-sensitive spell could prompt a LUCK roll to see whether the spell takes up the entire turn (leaving nor room/concentration for dodging and such), leaks power, breaks down, or even backfires because there simply isn’t time to include all the information your +CMP essences want to stuff in.

It may be possible to encourage the use of chaotic essences by making them exempt from these restrictions- if they decide to help, of course.

((Building on this... how about this:))

((How about this: there is to be no cap on the number of essences that a given player can store, and there is to be no cap on how many can be used... but in combat, here's what I suggest: if a player casts a spell in combat using essences, they get a -1 to dodge attacks for that turn for every two non-chaotic essences used(chaotic essences don't do this). If a player is hit only because of that dodge malus.... for instance 5 vs. 6-3(6 essences on doom spell), the player loses 2x CMP on their spell(either that or they just get a luck roll or endurance roll to keep the spell from collapsing), where x is the attack targeting roll minus the total dodge roll(malus taken into account).))