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[GavJ]

okay that sounds like a good place to start. Also I don't even want caravans, so that's easy! Thanks

[m-logik]

Is there anyway to tell before embarking that your civ is dead?

You can tell on the embark screen in the tab where you select your civ. A dead civ will not have any sites appear. Dwarf sites use the same symbol as statues. Destroyed or abandoned sites don't appear on the embark screen, so if you see at least one site, the civ is still alive.

[GavJ]

Wait a second, why did he get one migrant wave, but not the second? This does not align with any theories I'm aware of about migrants.

Since the first two waves are supposed to be hardcoded, it should be EITHER:
A) You get a few migrants in wave 1 and wave 2, even if your civ is dead (if it's completely hardcoded with magical poof-into-existence dwarves)
B) You get a message on the screen or whatever due to hardcoding but no migrants either wave 1 or 2 (if hardcoded means only the check for a wave, not actual dwarves)

What explains getting them 1 but not 2?

[NullForceOmega]

As I understand it, and as Quietust and others who have poked around in the actual source have stated many times, you should always get two waves of migrants.  Period.  End of declaration.  I think it may be possible, however, for a fortress to have experienced several deaths or failed to accumulate enough wealth (or a combination of the two) to actually have no units arrive in one or both waves.

[GavJ]

I'm not sure I understand what "getting a wave of migrants" MEANS if not actual dwarves?

Because every season thereafter, you still get either some migrants, or "The fortress attracted no migrants this season." So if you're calling either dwarves or no-dwarves a "migrant wave" then the first infinitely many waves are hardcoded, yes?

So what's the difference between ano-migrants-migration in the first 2 waves versus any other empty wave ever? I'm not seeing the special situation about the first two, if not guaranteed dwarves.

[NullForceOmega]

The hard-coded aspect of the first waves is as follows: no matter what you do, no matter how you try, these two waves of migrants WILL ALWAYS ARRIVE.  I personaaly have ne direct insight into the exact language of the code that governs it, for all I know it's simply an oversight that even if one of the first two waves is empty it still gives you the message that migrants have arrived.  I don't have a screenshot to draw conclusions from, I have only the word of the OP that this event occured, I am simply offering what I believe to be an objective veiwpoint on the possible course of events.

[GavJ]

The hard-coded aspect of the first waves is as follows: no matter what you do, no matter how you try, these two waves of migrants WILL ALWAYS ARRIVE.

...but that's not true, because the OP just said that the second one didn't.

Unless as you imply, the OP might have just been mistaken or not noticed a wave or something, okay. But otherwise, it seems to be a counterexample, because there is no meaningful difference between an empty 2nd wave and the empty 3rd or 4th or 17th waves, which would mean that there's nothing special about the "first two waves" after all.

Since I intend to try and create a dead civ for my own purposes anyway, if I succeed, I'll make a save branch and try testing several forts on this to try and replicate.

[NullForceOmega]

The OP quite specifically said that there were two 'Migrants have arrived' messages.  I am asserting that it is possible, through some quirk of the code, that this could have occured if other standard checks for migration size returned a '0' result on the hardcoded waves.  That's it.  My whole assertion, based on observations of DF's occasionaly buggy behaviors.

[GavJ]

Yes, but don't you ALWAYS get either migrants or a message every other subsequent active dwarf season forever? I do... Am I alone in this?

if you always get messages forever and ever (whether dwarves come along or not), then it's not meaningful to make a big deal out of always getting the first two messages... because yeah sure, you always get the first two. But you also always get the first 37. SO that would mean the first two are not special at all. (maybe the first 1 wave is still special, the OP does not undermine that)

[NullForceOmega]

Actually, there are circumstances under which you do not recieve migrant messages at all, if your population cap has been reached/exceeded for instance.  I like to build generational forts, with the founding seven and the hard waves, but with pop-cap set at 0 in d-init.  The only situation where you continue to recieve warnings under that setup is with a dead civ and no caravans, if no one reports on your growth then DF continues to send waves.  I cannot find the post right now, but I believe that it is possible to recieve a 0 migrant or 'empty' wave, it may even be up on the bug tracker.

[GavJ]

So by "hardcoded" is what it actually means just that "you can't avoid them, because you can't have reported your population to the caravan yet as of summer and autumn" ? If so, I'd say that's a bit of a stretch to call "hardcoded" but yes, it would make them "special" insofar as no matter how low your cap is, you get a chance for dwarves.

But even if that's the case, it still doesn't really explain why the OP got any dwarves in the first wave. If it's just two guaranteed chances, but his civ was dead, then both should have gotten messages regardless of his pop cap, but then both turned up empty, yes?

[Melting Sky]

Wait a second, why did he get one migrant wave, but not the second? This does not align with any theories I'm aware of about migrants.

Since the first two waves are supposed to be hardcoded, it should be EITHER:
A) You get a few migrants in wave 1 and wave 2, even if your civ is dead (if it's completely hardcoded with magical poof-into-existence dwarves)
B) You get a message on the screen or whatever due to hardcoding but no migrants either wave 1 or 2 (if hardcoded means only the check for a wave, not actual dwarves)

What explains getting them 1 but not 2?

A few posts back I corrected my initial assessment about the second wave. It was late at night and it was an oversight on my part when it looked like it contained no migrants. The second wave consisted of only two migrants and one of the migrants had the same first name as one of the originals so when I looked through the unit menus and dwarf therapist I just failed to catch them.

Edit: OCD typo corrections.

[GavJ]

Ah. Well then. =)

[krenshala]

The hard-coded aspect of the first waves is as follows: no matter what you do, no matter how you try, these two waves of migrants WILL ALWAYS ARRIVE.  I personaaly have ne direct insight into the exact language of the code that governs it, for all I know it's simply an oversight that even if one of the first two waves is empty it still gives you the message that migrants have arrived.  I don't have a screenshot to draw conclusions from, I have only the word of the OP that this event occured, I am simply offering what I believe to be an objective veiwpoint on the possible course of events.

I can confirm that the second migrant wave, at least, can be cancelled due to "no way we're moving to that hell of a mountainhome!" as I had a fort that got the first wave (3 dwarves, cause everyone was sleeping in the dirt) but I lost 4 dwarves to alligators (2) and a cave in (2 others, one living just long enough to asphyxiate from cave-in dust in the hospital while waiting for the doc to examine him) all about a week before the second migrant wave was due to arrive.  When that time came the game just threw up a message that "nobody is interested in moving to your fortress" or something like that.  I think it was darker, actually, since I lost 40% of current population but I can't remember the wording since it was back in 0.34.09.

[greycat]

So by "hardcoded" is what it actually means just that "you can't avoid them, because you can't have reported your population to the caravan yet as of summer and autumn" ?

In this context, "hardcoded" means it's built into the game itself and you can't change it.  No editing of the raws, or the init files, will matter.