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[TheVerySpecialK]

I've always found it odd that during embark the distribution of skill points costs embark points. Why can't each dwarf just have 10 free skill points to distribute anyways? When you think about it, it doesn't really matter if your dwarves start out skilled or not: An unskilled dwarf can pick up a new profession and become skilled quite fast, even if he or she didn't receive points in that skill to begin with. Thus, a few extra points at embark shouldn't really be a game-breaking issue.

Besides, the logic of tying skill points to embark points is already questionable: If I spend points at embark to make my dwarves skilled miners, then why would I be limited to the amount of mining equipment I could bring they all leave their picks at home? If a dwarf is highly-trained in a certain skill, then it's only logical that that dwarf would bring along or posses implements relating to that skill. The current system almost feels like it punishes you for making your dwarves skillful, which makes no sense.

Below is a little story I wrote to illustrate my point:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Expedition leader and skilled woodsman īton Arbankubūk heaved a miserable sigh that smelled of madness. His party had just stumbled upon a perfect embark site, complete with a forest, river, and nearby cliffs of marble. The ingredients of dwarfishness! This discovery did little to improve his fell mood, however. Preparations at Tustemavuz had been costlier then expected, and he had been forced to sell his copper battle axe to cover tuition fees at the local woodcutter school. "Damn penny-pinchers, that's what they were," he grumbled. In fact, now that he thought about it, he had been forced to sell almost everything useful just to learn how to swing an axe. "Fair trade that was," he fumed under his breath. Then he roared, "And don't even get me started on how Elven schools are open to the public, free of charge! Greatest mine in Namaelathu and we can't educate a dwarf without nicking the shirt off his back!"

His outburst drew looks of surprise from his dwarven brethren. "What the hell are you on about?" asked Zon ōsustakrul, a miner.

"Nothing, nothing," he muttered. "Unload the wagon! We need to organize our supplies and start building before winter arrives, so hop to it!" īton sat and watched as his fellows scrambled to do his bidding: They were all so loyal, so unquestioning. "Be a miracle if they survive the year," he thought. Just then, Mosus Koganfikuk, the bookkeeper and fisher-dwarf rushed up.

"We've just finished unloading the wagon, sir, and I've made an inventory of all of our supplies. We've got one barrel of Dwarven Ale," he panted.

"Go on," said īton.

"That's it, sir! That's all we've got!"

"Wait... What?! What do you mean that's all we've got?" roared īton, now genuinely worried.

"Well you see sir, Zon and Ustuth both traded their copper picks for a crash-course in geology, and Monom bartered away all our seeds to pay for his seed-planter's license. Quite expensive these days, you know."

"What about the animals? The food?"

"Ah yes. Well, Masons don't teach themselves! Same goes for mechanics and fisherdwarves. AND woodcutters," added Mosus, with a smug look.

"Shut up! I've got to see this for myself! How in the name of Armok..."

īton rushed over to the wagon, where the other dwarves were gathered with expressions dismay upon their faces. Sure enough, Mosus was right: A single barrel of Dwarven Ale sat next to the empty wagon.

"Well, on the bright side we've still got booze," said Ustuth. "And educations!" he added.

Why I ought to..." started īton. But before he could finish, a piercing cry sounded from overhead. The dwarves looked up just in time to see a Giant Kea block out the sun as it descended upon them. "Get to cover!" he yelled.

The dwarves didn't need telling twice: All of them scrambled away from the wagon, falling over each other in a mad dash for the trees. īton looked back: The Giant Kea had perched upon the wagon, and was eying the last barrel of dwarven ale with a malevolent look. "Oh hell no..." he thought. Before he could react, the Giant Kea seized the barrel in its beak and leaped into the air, its giant wings propelling it swiftly through the darkening sky.

"Such pretty birds, aren't they?" said Mosus, who had just stumbled over with a look of wonder on his face. "So... intelligent! And... curious! I do wonder if they make good pets" he added, with an expression of longing.

īton's face contorted into a mask of fury: "If I had my axe, I'd have your head, you witless, Elf spawned...!" Just then, a pair of hands seized his shoulders from behind. "What now!" bellowed īton, turning around.

It was Thob Olinrimad, the mechanic, who had thus far been silent throughout the entire ordeal. His eyes were wide, blazing with an unknown power, and he was grinning like a maniac.

"W-what? What's gotten into you? What do you want?" stammered īton, taken aback at his fellow's strange behavior.

Thob replied, "I NEED WOOD! I NEED MARBLE! I NEED BONES!"

In all seriousness, though, I do think the current skill-point system could benefit from some changes. Even if each dwarf didn't get a ten free points, it would still be nice to see some sort of skill point system that was based upon their own preferences, likes and dislikes (and not on embark points). Maybe a dwarf who liked pine wood would receive a bonus to skills relating to carpentry at embark. Conversely, if you tried to install a dwarf with skill points in a skill or profession he despised, then it could cost twice as much to train up that skill.

In any case, I feel that the embark point and skill point systems should each be separate, self-contained and (for the most part) unrelated processes with minimal overlapping. Embark points should only concern supplies, and skill points should only concern skills.

[breadman]

I've found it odd to purchase skill points at all.  It might be more interesting to choose up to seven from a list of twenty or so historical figures that the civilization's capital would be willing to part with; exactly the kind of people who show up as migrants, with their own skills, possessions, and perhaps pets.  Each dwarf could cost a certain number of embark points, but perhaps some would give you points, as if they were contributing their own funds to the effort.  Unchosen dwarves may well show up in future migrant waves.

As a side effect, this allows hermit forts to start with only one or two dwarves, instead of sealing out the excess.

It would be particularly nice to find a favorite dwarf from one fortress in the list of candidates for a new expedition.  On the other hand, a lack of any reasonably skilled miners may be a recipe for Fun.

[dudlol]

Purchasing units from a historical figures pool would be interesting, but it would complicate embarking quite a lot trying to get the most out of it. It shouldn't cost embark points if such a system were used though. Skill points are necessary. Taking unskilled dwarves should allow more specialists.

And capping embark skills at five is kind of arbitrary and unnecessary. You're going to have five legendary soap makers by your fourth migrant wave anyways.

But yeah. To add something to it, if anything embarking with more skilled dwarves should give you MORE embark points. A skilled carpenter is going to be wealthier than seven jobless peasants on his own, before you even consider the other six dwarves. Perhaps, as with adventurer mode, we should have difficulty settings which get you more skilled dwarves and more staring loot. Lowest would be seven peasants and highest might be a legendary,  some high skills, and a noble.

[Deepblade]

I personally would like it to pull from the world. Then at least they'd start out with some social skills, maybe minor fighting skills, and some family members that could migrate in. Maybe having a way to sort through candidates by professions or preferences would be good for that.

[GavJ]

1) I don't get the complaint. It makes perfect sense to me. More skilled people = more of an investment and a risk from the mountainhomes to give up those people. They're only willing to invest X amount in this expedition, and skills have tangible value in a fort, just like booze and wagon wheels and bullets and ... oh wait wrong game. But you get the idea. Imagine actually sending dwarves from YOUR fort. Would you be equally willing to send a useless peasant versus your one prized armorer or champion? Hell no.

2) This is already moddable to fit your tastes. Just go to advanced worldgen and up the number of allowed embark points by exactly whatever the number of poitns for 10 embark skills for each dwarf adds up to. There you go -- implemented for you.



Being able to pull from the world historical figures pool, however, is definitely something that should be a thing. But is fairly separate from the embark point issue.

[Bumber]

Imagine actually sending dwarves from YOUR fort. Would you be equally willing to send a useless peasant versus your one prized armorer or champion? Hell no.

Seems like you'd want to give them more goods if you were risking your skilled dwarves on an expedition, though.

[Larix]

You're not risking them, you're taking them away. The dwarfpower that goes to your fort is lost for the mountainhome (and they notionally actually spent the time training them). The skill you take away can be considered a definite cost for the mountainhome and an embark is an investment with very unsure chances of returns. So yes, i think limiting the amount of skill you can nab and counting it as an equivalent cost to the goods you're starting out with makes sense.

And of course, it also makes sense from a gameplay perspective - optimising your embark means you get to juggle skills vs. goods to fit the best total into your embark point limit; boosting your skills to get extra items would be just silly. Of course, if you want extra freebies, you can create a world with advanced parameters and boost your embark point ratings.

[Snaaty]

I don't really see a problem with the embark skills costing points, either.
However, the idea to draw your dwarves from a list of already existing ones does sound really awesome. 

[Quietust]

An amusing story, but the pedant in me has to point out that the ending is impossible - dwarves cannot enter strange moods until you have a population of at least 20.

Also, with the default supplies given in 0.34.11, you'll have at least 834 embark points left after making each dwarf Proficient in two skills (which is the most expensive way to do it), enough for 84 barrels of alcohol. Even back in version 0.23.130.23a, when embark points were much more limited (you couldn't trade in your anvil for more goods, though your axes/picks were worth 100 points each, being made of iron), you could still manage 21 barrels of alcohol (which would also be distributed between 3 wagons, giving you an extra 2 horses and mules).

Thus, a much better explanation is that your expedition leader was simply incompetent.

[AltF4]

I personally would like it to pull from the world. Then at least they'd start out with some social skills, maybe minor fighting skills, and some family members that could migrate in. Maybe having a way to sort through candidates by professions or preferences would be good for that.

Starting social skills would be great.  Its always bugged me that my starting dwarves are always so anti-social.

[TheVerySpecialK]

It makes perfect sense to me. More skilled people = more of an investment and a risk from the mountainhomes to give up those people.

The dwarfpower that goes to your fort is lost for the mountainhome (and they notionally actually spent the time training them). The skill you take away can be considered a definite cost for the mountainhome and an embark is an investment with very unsure chances of returns.

Your suggestions raise an interesting question, which concerns exactly how much freedom dwarves have in their societies in Dwarf Fortress. Are all expeditions sponsored and funded exclusively by the Mountainhome, or are enterprising dwarves allowed to form colonization parties out of their own volition? I was under the impression that the latter was correct, as my in-game dwarves tend to exhibit a high fun level of autonomy.

If the latter is indeed correct, then my suggestion about the embark system would make perfect sense: A free dwarf would be allowed to lay claim to certain items that would constitute that dwarf's personal wealth. I can only assume that such a dwarf would be permitted to take this accumulated wealth along with him/her during embark, especially if that wealth related to that dwarf's profession.

You also mention a cost or "risk" that the Mountainhome supposedly assumes when a handful of its dwarves embark on an expedition. If the dwarves are taking along little more than their own personal implements and belongings, however, then how could this possibly be true? Even if it was, I always assumed that the Mountainhome the dwarves were embarking from were massive, wealthy societies that could easily afford to take such a risk: Indeed, it is safe to assume that many Mountainhomes actually experience a need to send out colonial parties to keep their burgeoning populations in check.

Imagine actually sending dwarves from YOUR fort. Would you be equally willing to send a useless peasant versus your one prized armorer or champion?

If I embarked with a prized armorer or a champion, then I would automatically (and logically) assume that the Mountainhome I embarked from had an excess of such dwarves. Otherwise, the dwarves wouldn't have left in the first place due to their job security and value to the Mountainhome. If I had 20 master armorers, then I certainly wouldn't mind parting with one.

[Kadian]

Even if it was, I always assumed that the Mountainhome the dwarves were embarking from were massive, wealthy societies that could easily afford to take such a risk: Indeed, it is safe to assume that many Mountainhomes actually experience a need to send out colonial parties to keep their burgeoning populations in check.

I always thought that a mountainhome is the 'capital city' of the civilization ; you can visit those in Adventure mode. It's been a while but last I checked they had like...a 100 dwarves in them, if that? So, let's be generous and say a normal mountain home has around 200-400 Dwarves - that would definitely be enough to send 20 or more skilled dwarves on their way to make an outpost for dwarfkind, not only 7.

Other than that, I'm with SpecialK. The dwarves should be allowed to take some of their private stuff with them, that would only be logical, wouldn't it? Would YOU just abandon your old home and leave all your money and items there to go to the great beyond? Wouldn't you want to take tools with you if you're a carpenter, miner, mason and so on? You >know< your skills will come in handy, they might even be vital for the survival of the caravan, so wouldn't you make sure you had everything you need?
And even if you think 'the king surely will pay for my tools and send them with the caravan' - wouldn't you take some spare underwear with you, maybe your favourite +Shale Mug+ and maybe something for amusement (Books, toys, puzzle cubes, ...) and maybe a knife or a small axe, those can always come in handy, for a lot of stuff (opening booze barrels for example!) ; you obviously couldn't take everything with you, but a backpack worth of items per dwarf is acceptable. Hell, you could even use the Strength attribute ; stronger dwarves can carry more stuff in their backpack and therefore have full backpacks, weaker dwarves only have some bare essentials with them, and some might not take anything with them.

[Zammer990]

Even if it was, I always assumed that the Mountainhome the dwarves were embarking from were massive, wealthy societies that could easily afford to take such a risk: Indeed, it is safe to assume that many Mountainhomes actually experience a need to send out colonial parties to keep their burgeoning populations in check.

I always thought that a mountainhome is the 'capital city' of the civilization ; you can visit those in Adventure mode. It's been a while but last I checked they had like...a 100 dwarves in them, if that? So, let's be generous and say a normal mountain home has around 200-400 Dwarves - that would definitely be enough to send 20 or more skilled dwarves on their way to make an outpost for dwarfkind, not only 7.

Other than that, I'm with SpecialK. The dwarves should be allowed to take some of their private stuff with them, that would only be logical, wouldn't it? Would YOU just abandon your old home and leave all your money and items there to go to the great beyond? Wouldn't you want to take tools with you if you're a carpenter, miner, mason and so on? You >know< your skills will come in handy, they might even be vital for the survival of the caravan, so wouldn't you make sure you had everything you need?
And even if you think 'the king surely will pay for my tools and send them with the caravan' - wouldn't you take some spare underwear with you, maybe your favourite +Shale Mug+ and maybe something for amusement (Books, toys, puzzle cubes, ...) and maybe a knife or a small axe, those can always come in handy, for a lot of stuff (opening booze barrels for example!) ; you obviously couldn't take everything with you, but a backpack worth of items per dwarf is acceptable. Hell, you could even use the Strength attribute ; stronger dwarves can carry more stuff in their backpack and therefore have full backpacks, weaker dwarves only have some bare essentials with them, and some might not take anything with them.

Are you suggesting dwarves bring all their damaged clothes from the mountainhome? All 70 years worth of x(pig tail socks)x?
You monster

[Cobbler89]

Personally I think that deciding to trade off goods for starting skills would be more interesting if the separate cap on starting skills was looser. There's so little point in trading barrels of alcohol for marginal starting skills; there'd be much more of a tradeoff to ponder in choosing how to balance initial supplies with, say, the warriors skills that would actually make your fortress defendable from the start. (If this is something that's also configurable and I just haven't seen it, let me know.........)

[GavJ]

So, let's be generous and say a normal mountain home has around 200-400 Dwarves - that would definitely be enough to send 20 or more skilled dwarves on their way to make an outpost for dwarfkind, not only 7.

Yours isn't the only outpost. Look at your embark map aroudn the capital - there are usually like 20 other dwarven towns surrounding it. And those are only the oens that SURVIVED, at that. They send out people constantly.

Other than that, I'm with SpecialK. The dwarves should be allowed to take some of their private stuff with them, that would only be logical, wouldn't it?

They do... all your dwarves bring their own clothes, for one, no matter what. And presumably some portion of the allowed embark points would be their own contribution to their survival.
And the miners and woodcutters also DO bring their tools with them on the default embark setup. They only stop bringing them if you make a custom profile and force them not to.

Things like spare clothes and puzzleboxes is assuming things about life in the mountainhomes that just might not be true. You see it as a luxury "they have all game features provided" paradise. I see it usually more like a bare minimum crappy slumtown, where everybody is huddling in empty rooms with barely sufficient rations, etc., with the AI being as incompetent as it is -- you are their brilliant new administrator, not the other way around.

Notice, for example, that no dwarves ever arrive with positive or negative thoughts from the mountainhomes, even though we know they can keep thoughts between forts if they are your own forts. It's a bland, spartan place, just good enough to avoid misery and tantrum spirals, that's it.