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[Sergarr]

I'm talking more about a different architecture which would be analogue based. So instead of calculating bits, you would be measuring currents and voltage and something like that. A lot of physical equations can be simulated through correctly set up circuits.

Not necessarily emergent gameplay, but instead of traveling along a fairly simple graph, like in normal discrete crafting, you would be trying to direct a flow to your destination in n-dimensional space, where n is the number of controllable parameters. That would feel much more natural, because it would utilize the parts of our brains which correspond to 3D navigation.

[Glloyd]

Blacklist managed ok with just weapons and a few completely non-connected side missions as DLCs (which I did buy).

I just wish companies would realize that there is a time and a place for DLC, and that is far, far away from the 'base game'. Anyone that ships games with 'DLC' on the disk should be flensed.

Your argument is invalid. Blacklist had DLC on the disc as well as day 1 DLC.

[GavJ]

Drawing a bunch of polygons and slapping textures & lighting on them is just doing a lot of math, quickly enough to maintain a reasonable framerate for your desired quality.

Determining where force aplies to a metal sheet will rip it or where sharp edges will cut a cord is just doing a lot of math, quickly enough...

It's not gonna build your crafting system for you.

Sure it will. The proposed crafting system is:
1) Really good physics. (developing anyway even for just FPS games)
2) At least a lot of the stuff in the environment as physically modeled materials with meaningful properties and behavior via the engine. (Also desired for FPS or any other game, lots of R&D )
3) A method by which the player can specify "hold this down here, grab here, pull this way" etc. (The only thing more specific to crafty games, could still be a shared engine to some degree).

Physics holds your crafted stuff together or not. Physics makes it break or work usefully. There isn't really "crafting" as a standalone system necessarily. It can be the same exact calculations as done to see if you trip or if something you shoot at breaks. The only special thing is the manual manipulation controls. Which honestly could be pretty stylized too, specially with tools.

[Arbinire]

I can't help but feel those who are on the "real" crafting kick are more in love with the idea than they would be with the application.  You think it's a grind to line up items in a 3x3 grid, or collect and smelt 30 copper ore?  Imagine having to measure out exact specifications of iron and carbon to yield viable steel, instead of at best getting pig iron and at worse a brittle useless mess.  Or setting up power/electrical systems and having to decide between AC/DC currents, take into account things like coulomb strength, wire resistance, etc.

That to me would be a senseless fun-sucking grind.

[GavJ]

1) You're not giving any context for what sort of game you're talking about. That sounds awesome in some contexts (survival type games where the whole point is just making stuff to not die), fun sucking grind in others (a FPS fast paced actiony game thing)
2) In most games you would probably have the option to buy stuff instead of crafting it, like in real life.
3) Even if you sort of need to craft for any efficient living (which sounds poorly balanced -- there should be other ways to make a living in most cases), you could specialize in one thing that suits you as a player and get good at it and make high end stuff and buy the rest, no need to try and master everything and frustratingly suck at all of it. Again, how many craftspeople do you know in real life who have hobbies of pottery AND smithing AND electronics AND knitting AND woodworking AND blah blah?

[aristabulus]

Gav, you should really read that article I linked above.  The things you're describing add up to sound a lot like Everything: The Game.

I can't help but feel those who are on the "real" crafting kick are more in love with the idea than they would be with the application.  ....

I completely agree.  The people that actually truly want to get into a subject/craft/whatever to that level of detail are out in the real world doing stuff and making things.

[Neonivek]

I've seen games that did do the more complex crafting well. (Ohh Legend of Mana, you may have been obtuse but I did enjoy your crafting)

But no, that isn't really my issue with it. The problem is that for something that gives me the image of creativity, I am sure uninvolved with the process.

Do I get to chose how the thing looks? Nope. Do my skills alter how it works? Nope. Can I substitute materials or add in new flourishes? Nope.

I am essentially a factory worker. Crafting my butt.

I'll just sum up the issue with crafting just outright.

The item you make in crafting isn't YOUR item. It is just a replica... Insert these items and then a weapon pops out of the vending machine.

[GavJ]

Gav, you should really read that article I linked above.  The things you're describing add up to sound a lot like Everything: The Game.

That's because I'm describing a game engine to enable certain design choices, not a game or gameplay. An engine that would likely be usable for indeed, almost every kind of game.

[Retropunch]

I think there's a happy medium. I agree with Neonivek that most crafting in games is just finding parts for precipices and it magically appearing, but yet few people want Tannery Worker 2015.

I think the key is to allow the player to add their own touches to items, and have a wide variety of parts which can fit together. I don't see why games couldn't contain a basic modelling feature (similar to how you do faces in Skyrim/Sims) for most objects, and I'm sure those things could effect stats as well. All of which could be done with sliders and some thought put into systems.

Instead its 'generic leather helm: 2xLeather 1xIron'

[Darkmere]

And yet if you put in that kind of system, the finality of item creation would always boil down to "what does the most damage/soaks the most damage for reasonable item creation effort? Use that one."

I mean, there's absolutely nothing that's going to come from a current system that isn't preselected from a list of stuff that's already in the game. If you really want personalized items that no one else can replicate, take a bit to learn modding and modeling and actually make your own stuff, right? It's true creative freedom that way; you get exactly what you want how you want it.

[NullForceOmega]

There's an indie game in development called Planet Explorers that has voxel based crafting for certain items, including melee, guns, vehicles, and pre-fab buildings, and the materials and configuration do effect stats to a substantial degree.  I'ts fairly early in alpha at the moment, but the community is building some very interesting things with it.

[GavJ]

And yet if you put in that kind of system, the finality of item creation would always boil down to "what does the most damage/soaks the most damage for reasonable item creation effort? Use that one."

For the "mix and match" solution, you don't allow one thing to be best at everything... Basic gameplay balancing with that route.

[Neonivek]

And yet if you put in that kind of system, the finality of item creation would always boil down to "what does the most damage/soaks the most damage for reasonable item creation effort? Use that one."

For the "mix and match" solution, you don't allow one thing to be best at everything... Basic gameplay balancing with that route.

Or don't. A lot of people do not just optimize with guides.

In fact one thing the original two Fallouts did is they made everything you did feel significant. Are you rock stupid? Well congratulations that actually alters how the game is played. A boxer? Well there are definitely some boxing based missions just for you. High science? Well there is a lot of story built around that.

Heck in Graffiti Kingdom you could optimize your creations (I don't EXACTLY know how, the game doesn't elaborate) but honestly? You mostly didn't bother.

And while in Magic Pengel you obviously used more color because color is power... Most people who played it just made their monsters and took the stats that came with it. (Hilariously I played with my original monster, who looked insane because he just had a lot of extra stuff added to him)

DANG I loved Magic Pengel... I wish they would make another one but with Graffiti Kingdom's stronger creation system. Maybe make it more strategic.

You have no idea how much I would have loved a game with a magic pengel system for JUST weapons. Where even the colors you use can completely alter your weapon and its properties.

[Mindmaker]

Extensive freeform character creation at game start.
I can't know if most of those skills are actually useful. I can't know if the option for hybridization actually results in viable characters.
And I sure as hell don't want to spend dozens of hours finding out.

Just give me some pre-defined character classes to chose from and some customization options so I can take him in whatever direction I desire. Later on.
Kind of like some JRPGs do.

I've just spent two hours creating characters in Divinity: Original Sin, instead of just playing the damn game.
Those two hours during which I was supposed to relax.

[Bouchart]

Extensive freeform character creation at game start.
I can't know if most of those skills are actually useful. I can't know if the option for hybridization actually results in viable characters.
And I sure as hell don't want to spend dozens of hours finding out.

Have you ever played Arcanum?  It's probably the worst offender of this.