Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Retropunch]

I'm still missing the point. MY point was that repercussions can be plenty bad for your character and make you feel like crap without being graphic or splashy or headline making in a bad way for your game company. A solution similar to the one above can be lathered rinsed and repeated for any outcome in the game that seems too edgy, without actually nerfing the gravity of your game.

Unless by "influential guardian" you mean a player's parents or something? If so, my simple response is that a game like this would not be for kids. It's very unlikely young kids would be attracted to "morality quest" as a fun sounding game in the first place. It's a very adult-oriented concept to care this much about that or to seek it out as a cool sounding purchase.

GavJ, you're...kinda way off what Deathsword is meaning. As you say, you're still missing the point...

I completely agree with your earlier statement (and Deathswords) - at this point in gaming history we're still at the point where things need to be signposted or people don't get it (or developers think they don't). Having grey area decisions which only impact things far down the line is the only way to do 'evil', but we're a way off that in terms of gaming narrative. SpecOps: The Line did it well in terms of every choice being a double edged sword and having to make compromises, but they were very much 'choose one or the other' kinda choices.

I do believe that as games keep pushing to be more 'open-world' we'll eventually reach a sort of 'critical mass' where everything affects everything else in such an interconnected way that it's possible to do whatever you like and see the repercussions later down the line, without 'good' and 'evil' having to be scripted in.

[GavJ]

I don't see why somebody couldn't make that game as described next year.

As part of an otherwise AAA game? No probably not. As an indie game marketed as a morality RPG. Make it more like a really in depth, adult-oriented choose your own adventure. Stylized cheaper graphics if you want, less linear due to the video game medium's ability to let you wander around worlds and connect up in less obvious ways between points, some sort of drama/film noir/horror settings perhaps where a lot of things can be a bit ambiguous most of the time or left to the imagination.

Penumbra comes to mind in terms of flavor and aesthetic, but with storytelling being the main gameplay, not puzzle solving. Or rather, I guess, puzzles in the form of stories and choices, not physical pipes to connect, etc.

[Neonivek]

Not to mention there are a lot of morons out there who honestly believe that if your game doesn't somehow demonstrate why something is wrong, that the game is basically praising it or saying it is ok.

Which makes me groan and my eyes roll in their sockets like they were attached to screws.

Also no I am not speaking of a conversation I am having on this forum... this just really synchs up for some reason.

[Darkmere]

Not to mention there are a lot of morons out there who honestly believe that if your game doesn't somehow demonstrate why something is wrong, that the game is basically praising it or saying it is ok.

Now now, there are plenty of people who would say that no matter what, just because it was in the game at all.

But yeah, that's part of what I liked about the first 2 Mass Effects. You were accomplishing the same goals, just in a different way that reflected... eh... pragmatism vs altruism. Then 3 came along and "pragmatic" because "baby-kicker, puncher of kittens" and turned Renegade into Spiteful Evil alignment.

[Sonlirain]

The problem with moral choices is that you never really get the gray area in games.
Look at just about every BioWare RPG for example... or better let's focus on Jade Empire.
There are 2 "ways" in the game known as open palm (good) and closed fist (bad) now the closed fist i'f im not mistaken is about self reliance.
In the game however it translates into terrorizing and killing villagers, denying the dead their earned rest, selling women to whorehouses, killing children and generally being an asshole for no real reason.

Also for some reason Bioware decided to give evil characters lesser revards than good characters... and quite honestly this makes no sense since it comes to the point where a threatening murderous thug recieves less money from the terrorised villagers than a spongebob good guy who is showered with silver by every villager he encounters.

[Retropunch]

The problem with moral choices is that you never really get the gray area in games.
Look at just about every BioWare RPG for example... or better let's focus on Jade Empire.
There are 2 "ways" in the game known as open palm (good) and closed fist (bad) now the closed fist i'f im not mistaken is about self reliance.
In the game however it translates into terrorizing and killing villagers, denying the dead their earned rest, selling women to whorehouses, killing children and generally being an asshole for no real reason.

Part of it I think is that grey area choices tend not to lead anywhere. They're the middle path, and that doesn't really lead to anything exciting. For instance, most grey area choices are 'omissions', where you just decide to stand back and let things work themselves out - that's hard to portray in game, especially with the adversity to long term consequences (or 'ruining your game for good' as I'm sure it seems to some people).

Also for some reason Bioware decided to give evil characters lesser revards than good characters... and quite honestly this makes no sense since it comes to the point where a threatening murderous thug recieves less money from the terrorised villagers than a spongebob good guy who is showered with silver by every villager he encounters.

I think that's part of what Neonivek was saying about people going crazy over 'bad stuff' in games. The player HAS to be punished for doing something bad, otherwise it'd look like they were condoning it. GTA gets away with this mainly because it's so hugely popular/successful and tends to be silly as well.

[Sonlirain]

I think that's part of what Neonivek was saying about people going crazy over 'bad stuff' in games. The player HAS to be punished for doing something bad, otherwise it'd look like they were condoning it. GTA gets away with this mainly because it's so hugely popular/successful and tends to be silly as well.

Not quite you can get away with it scot free but the game will be slightely harder... but you'll only realize that if you play the good way and follow it up with an evil playthrough to notice that you're getting less stuff overall.

[Vendayn]

I used to get really excited...

"DYNAMIC EVENTS! WOOOOO!

then...

"dynamic events...oh...."

That and I thought a game that was like a movie would be really cool. Then realized...I'd rather watch a good movie.

[alexandertnt]

"Mature" or "Adult" or something like that - usually just means TONS OF GORE AND SEX AND BROWN yet still with a childish storyline and theme. I swear most games advertised like this are targeted at teens, not adults.

"Grey Morality" - usually means "Everyone is an asshole".

[Neonivek]

Also for some reason Bioware decided to give evil characters lesser revards than good characters... and quite honestly this makes no sense since it comes to the point where a threatening murderous thug recieves less money from the terrorised villagers than a spongebob good guy who is showered with silver by every villager he encounters.

I think that's part of what Neonivek was saying about people going crazy over 'bad stuff' in games. The player HAS to be punished for doing something bad, otherwise it'd look like they were condoning it. GTA gets away with this mainly because it's so hugely popular/successful and tends to be silly as well.

Not that it hasn't been banned a few times anyway. Plus even it tries to lessen the amount of actual crime you do in the games story wise by making all the villains criminals and the only crimes against people who don't deserve it really amounts to petty crime.

In fact in many of the grand theft auto games... you seem to inadvertently decreased the amount of crime in the city. (Such as in 3... O_o)

[Mech#4]

"GTA 1" had lifting cars to sell to a dockyard dealer, blowing up a building using a truck full of explosives, taking out a guy who was dating some other guys girlfriend. You were more of a thug for hire than any meaningful character with background and plot.

"Baldur's Gate 1" had morality, you could be either good or evil. Being evil though usually meant being petty and killing people for the laughs. Biggest issue with it was by having a bad reputation you ended up paying more for items in stores than if you were good, where you would actually get a discount, plus guards would spawn and attack you.

The game "Lucius" has you playing as the son of the devil with gameplay revolving around murdering the household inhabitants. I don't remember much opposition to the game, though probably because it wasn't made by a big company.

[Neonivek]

Ohh I remembered one

-Free-To-Play: Don't get me wrong, the feature itself isn't the issue... I like the idea that I don't need to pay 15 dollars a month to enjoy a game (even if my current favorite MMO is subscription... but dang do I wish I had friends in it). So when I heard I could play MMOs without paying through the nose I jumped in on that. Now while they were VERY grindy at first that wasn't the issue at first. The issue was later on these MMOs started to show their true colors in that they are incessantly naggy as they constantly and ceaselessly try to get you to put real money into it. Some of them do it by constantly flooding the game with pay moments or by making certain aspects of the game nearly unbearable without it. Neverwinter for example does both, you will find "money only" locked chests as well as a crafting system that is nearly unbearable if you don't put cash.

I know a lot of people put down people who are against the free-to-play model... but dear goodness I cannot stand it when I pick up an item and it basically tells me "ohh by the way, you need to pay real money if you want to actually have this item"

[Mech#4]

I've seen that. "Perfect World" gives you a few items at the beginning that are really useful, but the only way to get more of them is to spend money. They're things like powerful healing potions, resurrection scrolls and experience boosters. Can't remember if it was similar in "Forsaken World". Bit of a pity because those games have rather nice design, if a tad too repeated.

"Star Trek Online" has the locked box thing. I think I've got about 30 of them sitting in my bank in game. It's not as bad as it seems because I think you can get any of the items without paying anything. Of course that means spending hours grinding resources so not really that much of a win but... eh.

[GavJ]

Ohh I remembered one

-Free-To-Play: Don't get me wrong, the feature itself isn't the issue... I like the idea that I don't need to pay 15 dollars a month to enjoy a game (even if my current favorite MMO is subscription... but dang do I wish I had friends in it). So when I heard I could play MMOs without paying through the nose I jumped in on that. Now while they were VERY grindy at first that wasn't the issue at first. The issue was later on these MMOs started to show their true colors in that they are incessantly naggy as they constantly and ceaselessly try to get you to put real money into it. Some of them do it by constantly flooding the game with pay moments or by making certain aspects of the game nearly unbearable without it. Neverwinter for example does both, you will find "money only" locked chests as well as a crafting system that is nearly unbearable if you don't put cash.

I know a lot of people put down people who are against the free-to-play model... but dear goodness I cannot stand it when I pick up an item and it basically tells me "ohh by the way, you need to pay real money if you want to actually have this item"

Puzzle pirates is by far the best model for free to play I've ever seen.

Every (large) purchase requires a cost in both coins and doubloons. Coins you get by just grinding or participating in the (95% player run) economy. Doubloons you get by paying cash. HOWEVER, there is an exchange where you can trade coins for doubloons as an open market amongst players. Thus, anything and everything can be done in game without ever paying a red cent, if you're good enough. Which is quite possible, because success in the game depends entirely on actual player skill, since every mechanic is a pretty well made puzzle that you can as a player be good or bad at. As well as being real life savvy on the player run economy or not. They also have poker, and puzzle tournaments, and a fairly intense social game in the form of organizing hundreds of people to take over islands and then getting rent from business owners, etc. etc.

But yeah, basically free to play if you're smart and skilled at puzzles (hardcoded or social ones). And not free to play if you are too bad at the game to sustain yourself. Yet the company is guaranteed that the most efficient percentages of the population are both, because doubloons MUST be sunk per purchase, and somebody MUST pay for them so there must always be a group of people buying doubloons, and there's always going to be some group of good enough players to exchange for them instead (how good you have to be to be self sustaining depends on your appetites).

Due to the puzzles, it's infinitely better than Eve online, because if you're a skilled actual player, you can theoretically start a brand new character, not interact with anybody, and be the captain of a frigate with 400 people on it and kick everyone's ass within, like, 5 hours or something. One time I actually did become a captain (including the few requisite experience levels they ask for + winning enough for the doubloon fees) and actually recruited like 10 people from the docks and was sailing in a used ship in 12 hours, without saying a word about who I was to anybody / not relying on any connections. There are extraordinarily few hard restrictions on anything based on your character. Basically just a sort of short mandatory tutorial / alt abuse sort of filter period of a few hours.

I also played that MMO several times a week for about 3 years in college and paid a grand total of 2 months' worth of typical subscription costs the entire time, because that's how long it took me to pick up the skills needed to ride along for free. I suspect most DF players would be smarter than average enough to do so as well, honestly. You don't have to be like top 1% or anything. Probably more like top 25%

[Sonlirain]

Star Trek boxes are pretty fair imo. You can buy premium currency with refined dilithium (you can refine 8000 per day) so everything the game offers is somewhat availble without playing for it.