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[Sergarr]

I think it's possible to do interesting things with crafting.  In The Witcher there's an alchemist who suggests the best way to learn new formulae for alchemy is to discover them yourself by experimenting with the formulae you already have.  I haven't done much with it since I don't really have the materials to sit down and experiment, but I think a seriously experimental crafting method would be interesting.

Not like mashing things together randomly, but something you could experiment empirically and derive conclusions with actual practical implications.

Like, you mix X and Y together to create a potion that lets you see in the dark.  You can mix X and Z to create a poison that blinds the enemy.  You make a note that X seems to involve vision, and using other ingredients with proven or postulated effects, you can create a new potion with a predictable effect.

That kind of thing.

That's a pretty good solution to crafting, indeed.

My list:
Waving your sword using mouse.

First seen in an ancient game named the Forge. Then in Gothic 3.

Then Witcher came along.

The only game that did that right was Robin hood: Legend of sherwood.

[Girlinhat]

I'll say this about crafting.  Three games I've seen that do crafting exceedingly well, are Aurora, Shores of Hazeron, and... I forget the name of the other one, because it was an extremely small-scale game with pay-to-play dynamics and I couldn't get a foothold, and it shut down several years ago.

What all of these do, is let you take individual parts - in Hazeron a weapon component and a power generator - and mix them in different amounts to achieve different results.  In Hazeron, you can have half of your ship dedicated to weapons, but that could be a single massive laser that recharges slowly, or a tiny laser that rapid-fires a dozen times a minute.  Similarly in Aurora, you can design each and every system on your vessels using technology you've unlocked.  You could take a standard laser, but then give it higher fire rate and lower range and make a short range ablative gattling, extremely easily.  Beyond that even, because of the way Aurora works, each ship is just a component of a fleet, so you could have different balances of one ship with sensor range, another with high-powered rifles, and another with defensive power.

This, really, is the crafting to get behind.  The Minecraft mod Tinkers Construct did similar - instead of just a pickaxe, you had three components, of up to three different materials, each with their own unique stats.  Some materials are downright better than others, while others are tradeoffs.

Bad crafting is Runescape - go grind a few hours in the mines and get some iron, then you just have this item.
Good crafting is based on a series of components and rules with no set outcome.  Wikis can apply here, because you can easily learn 'oh, steel is better for armor than copper' but it can also get intricate, for example, if you have to choose between adding pauldrons for extra armor, or leaving them off to avoid the weight penalties.

What it really seems to come down to with crafting, in the end, is how many components are used to make a finished item, and how many components are optional.  That seems to be, really, what sets apart games like Dwarf Fortress and Aurora apart from Runescape or Wurm, is how much freedom you're given to make things to your personal style, or if you're just following a build.

[PrimusRibbus]

Online Multiplayer

I do love me some couch co-op or private server MP, but there are way too many developers out there that think dealing with screaming children and insufferable basement dwellers is the best feature ever.

As far as the crafting debate goes, the only game that I ever enjoyed crafting in was Legend of Mana. LoM had a very academic approach to crafting that emphasized logical experimentation (people literally wrote papers on LoM crafting theory), instead of the "if you click a button with two wolf teeth in your inventory you get a sword WOW COOL" crafting that everyone else seems to use.

[Sonlirain]

Bad crafting is Runescape - go grind a few hours in the mines and get some iron, then you just have this item.
Good crafting is based on a series of components and rules with no set outcome.  Wikis can apply here, because you can easily learn 'oh, steel is better for armor than copper' but it can also get intricate, for example, if you have to choose between adding pauldrons for extra armor, or leaving them off to avoid the weight penalties.

That pretty much defines most crafting in MMOs altho there are some mild changes... especially in endgame crafting.
But it always ends up in being a "fetch x materials and press a button to get the item" altho materials can often be less mundane if they come from a dungeon/raid you have to run with your guild.

Mabinogi has a bit more involving crafting but in this case it gets hellishly grindy.

[Tellemurius]

I think it's possible to do interesting things with crafting.  In The Witcher there's an alchemist who suggests the best way to learn new formulae for alchemy is to discover them yourself by experimenting with the formulae you already have.  I haven't done much with it since I don't really have the materials to sit down and experiment, but I think a seriously experimental crafting method would be interesting.

Not like mashing things together randomly, but something you could experiment empirically and derive conclusions with actual practical implications.

Like, you mix X and Y together to create a potion that lets you see in the dark.  You can mix X and Z to create a poison that blinds the enemy.  You make a note that X seems to involve vision, and using other ingredients with proven or postulated effects, you can create a new potion with a predictable effect.

That kind of thing.

That's a pretty good solution to crafting, indeed.

My list:
Waving your sword using mouse.

First seen in an ancient game named the Forge. Then in Gothic 3.

Then Witcher came along.

The only game that did that right was Robin hood: Legend of sherwood.

Or Arx Fatalis which included the mouse waving for spells?

[MoLAoS]

(removed)

[Krevsin]

QTEs. Yeah, I realize I'm in the minority but when I first came into contact with QTEs (I forget what game it was) I actually thought they were a neat addition and made the cutscenes seem more involving. I seem to have realized the error of my ways, though.

"Realistic Graphics!". They age terribly and nowadays, it's just an excuse to suck all the colour out of the world.

[Neonivek]

"Realistic Graphics!". They age terribly and nowadays, it's just an excuse to suck all the colour out of the world

The only good thing to come of this is the parodies. I especially love when they have characters walking outside and noticing that the greens are so vibrant that they are clearly fake because they know that the world is actually brown, grey, and dusty.

[anexiledone]

These kind of threads always devolve into arguments. I never understood why it causes so much personal aggrivation to hear that someone else doesn't enjoy something you enjoy. Put this in the spectrum of real life. I love black liquorice, many people don't. I'm not offended by this, or feel the need to prove everyone's taste wrong, or explain to them their inferior tastes are the problem and not the food. I don't understand the tension video game features bring out lol

HOWEVER, I don't like crafting in most games. Not the grinding aspect or any of that stuff, but I hate how you can never make something reasonably unique in games. Your plate helm and my plate helm will always look the same and usually act the same. I wouldn't mind if games explored systems similar to spore for crafting. Maybe I want my plate helm to have horns, or a copper trim on the vision slit. I think if devs can find a way to implement the artistic side of crafting, it'd solve most of the woes of crafting in games. But unfortunately it's that much more code work and art to do.

[Sergarr]

QTEs. Yeah, I realize I'm in the minority but when I first came into contact with QTEs (I forget what game it was) I actually thought they were a neat addition and made the cutscenes seem more involving. I seem to have realized the error of my ways, though.

"Realistic Graphics!". They age terribly and nowadays, it's just an excuse to suck all the colour out of the world.

What about Crysis? (the first one)

[SirAaronIII]

Video games, though. If you can't be sure you're 100% right about video games, how can you be sure you're 100% right about anything else?

OT: Probably "Open World". They're a bit too open for me. It's nice at first, but I don't want to walk for hours across this largely-samey landscape to get to the next quest objective or whatever. Especially not if the game's throwing distractions like caves to explore, because I just can't refuse. ^{skyrim cough cough}

[WillowLuman]

Runescape

Represents everything wrong with MMO gameplay. The only thing it's got going for it is a decent sense of humor and a lack of cash shops. Haven't played it in 6 or 7 years, though.

[MoLAoS]

(removed)

[MoLAoS]

These kind of threads always devolve into arguments. I never understood why it causes so much personal aggrivation to hear that someone else doesn't enjoy something you enjoy. Put this in the spectrum of real life. I love black liquorice, many people don't. I'm not offended by this, or feel the need to prove everyone's taste wrong, or explain to them their inferior tastes are the problem and not the food. I don't understand the tension video game features bring out lol

HOWEVER, I don't like crafting in most games. Not the grinding aspect or any of that stuff, but I hate how you can never make something reasonably unique in games. Your plate helm and my plate helm will always look the same and usually act the same. I wouldn't mind if games explored systems similar to spore for crafting. Maybe I want my plate helm to have horns, or a copper trim on the vision slit. I think if devs can find a way to implement the artistic side of crafting, it'd solve most of the woes of crafting in games. But unfortunately it's that much more code work and art to do.

Actually food is arguably more of a drama machine than video games could ever be. You just spend more time on video game forums than foodie or nutrition or parents forums/blogs. Boy does that shit get nasty. Licorice isn't a hot button food although candy in general can be.

As far as crafting goes, you could let players craft their own gear. Break out an art tool, like SketchUp or something, integrated into the client, and let people modify stuff based on materials. Carving a helmet out of dragonbone for instance. Stats would still be decided by some sort of crafting system, but then you could have unique and recognizable gear and not have to spend your whole budget on art assets. Granted many people might be limited by personal artistic ability and/or have to stick with some presets or something.

[choppy]

Everyone, please take a step back (and a chill pill) and clam down. We all have more different opinions and that is ok. It not really worth fighting over. Plus we do not need to have Tarn (Toady) to clean up messes every few days. (Like GWG sadly)