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[sal880612m]

harvester != planter

The skill of the planter does affect stack size. By default anyone can harvest but only those with Farming(Fields) will plant. I honestly don't know how you came to the conclusion that skill level doesn't affect stack size since:

Dabbling:  1
Dabbling + fertilizer: 2.7
Legendary: 3
Legendary + fertilizer: 4.8

are your own results and there is obviously an increase in stack size between a Dabbling and Legendary yields.

I did misinterpret the wiki on stack size having a limit though.

[GavJ]

Oh you're right that quote is the reverse of how I read it.
But also, the thing you just said isn't what matters either. Yes, more experience --> larger stack. As the data I posted shows.
But the question is, does larger stack (harvested) --> more experience gained? (harvesting does not require the grower labor, but does give grower experience)

If not, then it would not accelerate the novice grower's progress in any way to be involved with larger stacks from fertilization. And actually I can't seem to find any data on that either way that is published. Would need testing.

(Note that there's no such thing as planting a larger stack from fertilization, because fertilization appears to be checked only at the moment of harvest, not planting. See: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=139382.0

[sal880612m]

Experience is given for the act of fertilizing itself though.

Only dwarves with the Farming (Fields) labor will apply fertilizer; this grants 30 XP of farming experience for each unit of potash used

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Farming#Fertilization

[GavJ]

Experience is given for the act of fertilizing itself though.

Only dwarves with the Farming (Fields) labor will apply fertilizer; this grants 30 XP of farming experience for each unit of potash used

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Farming#Fertilization

Yes, during which time you're not planting, and therefore not gaining experience from planting. I believe it's just a concession to the player to make them not worry about falling behind in the long run from spending the time to fertilize.

[Arkansan]

Ok I will reduce the over all number of farmers and add a couple of 3x3 plots. So turkey eggs require another ingredient to be cooked? That might explain it as I have cooking turned off for all plants so maybe they are just being eaten raw.

[sal880612m]

Really not sure what you are saying here. What I am getting is that once your current fields are totally planted you should build more fields so you can plant more to get more experience.

This will net you more experience but it is harder to quantify the results of, requires more/larger fields and takes more time to achieve roughly the same yield. In the end this is the superior method if you don't mind the tactic of just adding fields.

It isn't a method I personally use, or am likely to as I am OCD about fortress design to the point it is the single largest cause of me abandoning/losing forts.

So what I have said does need to be revised somehow (too tired to think well at the moment) but in terms of space and at least in the short term, yield and time fertilizing does win out.

I am still far more likely to limit my field sizes and use fertilizing if possible/necessary because I am OCD with fortress design and plopping down extra farm plots as need looks bad to me.

Ok I will reduce the over all number of farmers and add a couple of 3x3 plots. So turkey eggs require another ingredient to be cooked? That might explain it as I have cooking turned off for all plants so maybe they are just being eaten raw.

The wiki does not make specific note of whether or not you can cook multiple stacks of eggs together. I could swear I have done it but if you can afford to I suggest trying to cook your eggs into something when you have the appropriate number of stacks of turkey eggs for it. Two for biscuits, 3 for stews and 4 for roasts.

[GavJ]

OH wait okay, so are you saying this? :

Let's say the amount of time to do a field job is X, planting or fertilizing (dunno if that's true but whatever, for sake of argument).
A dabbling grower spending one job of time to plant will yield one plant eventually as a result.
A dabbling grower spending one job of time to fertilize will yield (in larger plots) about 6 extra plants as a result, when it is possible to do so.

Therefore, if you are limited by labor, you will get more bang for your labor buck by fertilizing to saturation on however many fields your number of growers is able to fertilize and fill.



Yes, that is true. And yes, this advantage will lessen with legendary, because planting job will yield almost as much as a fertilizing job (although the balance is still in favor of fertilizing even with legendary +7, I think. But it is less of a difference).

I think I'm just so used to always having tons of idlers, even fairly early on, that I wasn't thinking of it from a labor shortage point of view, but rather a "crops per farm space" point of view (I also play in mountains a lot where space is a premium since you have to muddy it yourself, usually without the help of aquifers).

Perhaps it's just a matter of "cultural" misunderstanding from different playstyles.

[Larix]

So turkey eggs require another ingredient to be cooked? That might explain it as I have cooking turned off for all plants so maybe they are just being eaten raw.

Just butting in: eggs are solid food and can be cooked with other eggs. A "stack" of food items, no matter how large, only counts as one ingredient when cooking, so if all you have is a single stack of turkey eggs, you can't cook with that. But if you have, say, a stack of turkey egg [12] and a stack of turkey egg [14], you could cook them into an "easy meal" - turkey egg biscuit [26] would be the result.

Case in fact: "This is a stack of 30 exceptional prepared guineahen egg roast. The ingredients are masterfully minced guineahen egg, exceptionally minced guineahen egg, masterfully minced guineahen egg and exceptionally minced guineahen egg."

As to original post: you should make sure the seeds you have are actually available for planting - if they're kept in a barrel, they'll be unavailable most of the time, greatly hindering your farming - and that your farmers have the necessary time to do that job: if they have all hauling labours activated, they'll often get tied up in endless hauling chains and never plant. Farming may not be glorious, but if you have specialised farmers, you need to treat them as specialists, planting can't be done as spare-time job besides full-time hauling (i'm emphasising this because it's the error that i'm most frequently committing).

"each farm tile seems to grow one plant at a time" really sounds like there's an organisational problem getting the farmers to farm in the first place, and the most common culprit is Seed Barrel, Destroyer of Fortresses.

[sal880612m]

Basically I use 1x7 fields which require 7 planting jobs per planting. If I want to receive approximately the same yields without using fertilizer when my planters have low skill I need to use 3x7 fields which require 21 planting jobs per planting. Most of my farming tends to be above ground and since you can farm all crops year round I see little reason not to. So if I want to have at least 4 fields for booze production to stop the bad thought relating to variety. Since I prefer making my own clothing and want to be able to dye it at least a couple of colors should I so choose that means even if I alternate the dyes I need about six fields.

Each 7x1 field requires 2 fertilizing jobs a season. and there will generally be two but may be three plantings a season so in using fertilizer on 6 fields I generate 84-126 planting jobs, 12 fertilizing jobs and 84-126 harvesting jobs a season for a range of 180-264 jobs a season.
In comparison using more fields to get similar results I would generate 252-378 planting jobs and 252-378 harvesting jobs for a range of 504-756 jobs a season.
Theses figures are wrong in some way that escapes my ability to define right now. Something along the lines of when you take yield increases due to skill increases in to affect you can also shrink the required number of tiles down. ie, the higher your skill gets the less an impact using fertilizer has on crop yield. For a dabbling planter it triples it for a legendary planter it only increase it by about 66% so instead of 21 farm plots producing the same as 7 you would only need about 12.
Overall though I prefer to fertilize to save on space, boost skill-less yields and not require tons of planters. If I use two planters I can give them an additional labor like cooking or brewing.

I find I don't like having huge migration waves so I usually have labor shortages. That and I want to see if I can go from seven dwarfs to mountain home with only births increasing my population.

[greycat]

Each 7x1 field requires 2 fertilizing jobs a season. and there will generally be two but may be three plantings a season so in using fertilizer on 6 fields I generate 84-126 planting jobs, 12 fertilizing jobs and 84-126 harvesting jobs a season for a range of 180-264 jobs a season.
In comparison using more fields to get similar results I would generate 252-378 planting jobs and 252-378 harvesting jobs for a range of 504-756 jobs a season.

You neglected to include the labor and resource costs of generating all that potash -- not least of which is the eventual shortage of wood you will face.  Each of those fertilizing jobs consumes one entire tree in vanilla.

[sal880612m]

So another 24-36 jobs a season. Resource wise it takes 48 wood a year which is quite a bit. As to each job consuming one entire tree all jobs using wood do. Crafting may produce more than one item but still takes one entire tree. It is something that everyone needs to determine the usefulness of themselves and there is a time when using it becomes unnecessary.


I really feel like we have moved away from the original topic so I won't post on this again. I already feel like I've helped bury Larix's confirmation that turkey hen eggs are considered solid food for the purposes of cooking.

[Panando]

I think the other thing generally worth emphasizing, is that many players find meat is the most convenient way to feed the population, leaving plants for brewing.

Even without a breeding program, there is a great abundance of meat in the game. First you slaughter any stray animals which end up in your fortress starting with your pack animals - this provides a surprising amount of food especially if you render the fat and cook it. Next you can easily catch cavern wildlife with a cage-trap corridor (but make sure you have a military if you do this) and slightly less easily catch surface wildlife by placing cage traps in choke-points (placing them on the tips of murky pools works very well), these animals can be tamed and butchered. Wild animals will normally provide a great abundance of food, they can be killed with marksdwarves or high-speed melee dwarves.

Breeding programs are generally not needed if you have a military for wholesale slaughter of butcherable things or even if you're just diligent about buying out caravans of everything edible and butcherable (this is especially so if you order extra animals from the liaison), but it's worth noting that you get about 10x the food per turkey egg, by incubating the egg and letting it turn into a full-grown turkey. Eggs are not a particularly efficient way to mass-produce food even if they are low-attention.

[ancistrus]

^ plus, you can get ridiculous amounts of meat from forgotten beasts

[GavJ]

You neglected to include the labor and resource costs of generating all that potash -- not least of which is the eventual shortage of wood you will face.  Each of those fertilizing jobs consumes one entire tree in vanilla.

It's actually quite realistic. Potash is extraordinarily, mind-bogglingly wood-gobbling in real life.
One whole tree would probably provide about a few hundred pounds of good burnable wood.
0.5% of that is ash, or about 1.5 pounds
~10% of THAT is potash for most species (willows excluded, they have about 50% potash in their ash), or about 2 ounces. Yes, two OUNCES of potash per tree (incidentally, grass is a much better source of potash, but I digress)

Which you are spreading over 100 square feet (4 tiles), which seems quite reasonable, actually.





Between that and charcoal making for industry AND construction, there's a reason Europe and early America deforested whole continents in the blink of an eye!!!

[Arkansan]

Well my previous fort crashed. A lack of booze and a few dwarfs dead of thirst started a tantrum spiral, thought I had it under control until my miner went berserk in the dining hall and took out six others, I just called it a game after that.

I started a new fort but did things a bit different this time. I embarked with more food and booze, I also brought 8 geese and 2 ganders. I planted 3 3x3 plots, two of them are helmets year round and the other is helmets and cave wheat. I also set up a dedicated seed stock pile which for some reason seems to have made a difference in out put and job cancellation spam. There is a stream on the map so I may give fishing a try. So far I am a season or three in and have an abundance of food and booze.