Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5

Author Topic: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer  (Read 13857 times)

Nice Save

  • Bay Watcher
  • Suddenly:
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2014, 06:31:22 am »

Wow, I didn't realise quite how long this would look laid out in one thread. I've never been so glad to have a mouse with a freewheel function.

It's not just a wall of text. It's a wall of text with pictures.

greycat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2014, 09:22:13 am »

The predators in the embark description aren't necessarily the most fearsome right? Just randomly selected?

I never even knew that was a thing!  Heh.  Even I learned something here.

Quote
There was a bug where Dorfs couldn't find stuff which was in a bag in a barrel, does that still exist?

No bugs that I'm aware of, but a seed stockile that permits barrels will run into hauling issues, where a dwarf takes a bag, brings it to the seed(s), drops it there, then goes back, takes the barrel with all the other bags in it, drags ALL of them to the lone bag, puts the bag back into the barrel, then hauls the barrel full of bags back to the stockpile.

The most common workaround is simply to disallow barrels in the seed stockpile, and to make sure no other stockpiles permit seeds.

Quote
There was a bug where Dorfs would bring infinite everything to a hospital, does that still exist?

Yes.  DFhack has a fix for it, but vanilla still has the bug.

Quote
Would you capitalise the word dwarf?

As long as you're consistent, it doesn't matter which way you choose.

Quote
On the unit view, the option z:St. What does that stand for, Status? Statistics?

I've always assumed Status, but only Toady One would know for sure.

Quote
Does a masterwork prepared meal give a bad thought to the creator when it's eaten or rots away?

Eaten: no.  Rotting away: maybe.  I'm not sure.

Quote
Are flour and sugar edible directly? (Note to self, don't be lazy, just check the RAWs.)

No.

Quote
The imminent new version seems like there won't be all that many sweeping changes to fortress mode. Multi-tile trees, invaders getting upset by corpses of their friends, and the occasional climbing enemy won't really invalidate this guide since thy're situational. Are you guys aware of any gameplay changes that would make this guide invalid?

The multi-tile trees might be very different.  We're all going to be newbies again in a few weeks, so we'll have to learn it as we go.
Logged
Hell, if nobody's suffocated because of it, it hardly counts as a bug! -- StLeibowitz

Nice Save

  • Bay Watcher
  • Suddenly:
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2014, 09:55:07 am »

Thanks for the answers greycat! I've added you to the credits.

Quote
The imminent new version seems like there won't be all that many sweeping changes to fortress mode. Multi-tile trees, invaders getting upset by corpses of their friends, and the occasional climbing enemy won't really invalidate this guide since they're situational. Are you guys aware of any gameplay changes that would make this guide invalid?

The multi-tile trees might be very different.  We're all going to be newbies again in a few weeks, so we'll have to learn it as we go.

I was thinking that the way we interact with the trees wouldn't be changing, it would still be a case of designating them. However, thinking about it and knowing DF, it wouldn't surprise me to find that the new version needs a bit more involvement. I guess time will tell.

I really hope there's enough common ground that this guide is still useful when the new version comes out.

Ai Shizuka

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2014, 10:38:24 am »

Good job so far, will be very useful for beginners.

But I'm not a fan of cramming too many skills into the starting seven. Especially important jobs like brewing and planting fields need to be on dedicated dwarves.
You don't really want a new player wondering why his brewer isn't brewing. And the in-game interface to tweak labors/jobs isn't exactly newbie-friendly.
Stuff like stonecrafting and mechanic can be trained very quickly to competent level by spamming large pots (put emphasis on these somewhere, very important on embarks with no wood) and mechanisms with some of the first migrants.
I wouldn't waste points on tanning, either. I just treat it as a hauling skill and enable it on everyone.
If you really want a soldier, he shouldn't have important round-the-clock skills.

I usually start, on non-evil biomes, with:
- miner
- miner
- brewer
- planter
- carpenter with a couple points on the broker skills (appraising and judge of intent)
- mason with 1-2 points on architect
- depends on embark: can be woodcutter (embark with trees), stonecrafter (embark with no trees), smith if I want to kickstart an early metal industry

At the beginning I turn off everything from the miners (except mining obviously), while the others keep all the hauling labors.
Then, as the population permits, I gradually start turning off the hauling stuff from the 'professionals'.
Usually in the first two waves I start training:
- stonecrafter
- mechanic
- bookkeeper/manager
- engraver
- second planter (I never play with more than 100 dwarves, and two dedicated legendary planters will produce an obscene amount of plants)

Metal-related jobs depend mostly on the biome. On peaceful embarks, I usually start the metal industry with the second-year migrant tsunami.

Mind you, I don't disagree with your embark skills. But I think it could get confusing for new players.
Logged

greycat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2014, 11:10:47 am »

With only 7 starting dwarves, everyone has to do multiple jobs for a while.  It's normal, and learning how to turn labors on & off is important.  Nobody's ever going to agree on the "best" allocation of starting skills or labors, and the guide even mentions this point of disagreement. ;)

P.S. Personally I do not consider Brewing to be such an important job -- certainly not to the point where you'd dedicate one of your starting seven to doing that exclusively.  I might give a skill point or two in Brewing to someone, but more often I'll just assign the Brewing labor to some random schmuck, or wait for a migrant.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 11:13:20 am by greycat »
Logged
Hell, if nobody's suffocated because of it, it hardly counts as a bug! -- StLeibowitz

Nice Save

  • Bay Watcher
  • Suddenly:
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2014, 11:23:47 am »

Good job so far, will be very useful for beginners.

But I'm not a fan of cramming too many skills into the starting seven. Especially important jobs like brewing and planting fields need to be on dedicated dwarves.

Yeah, the skill distribution would be pretty poor for a normal game. However, for the tutorial, the skills are tailored to match the lessons rather than for efficiency. If you haven't already seen it, there's a spoiler in the introduction which has more details about the setup of the embark.

For example, there's 2 miners but only one pick, and Tobul, the one without the pick, is also the furnace operator/weaponsmith. This lets me dedicate a chapter to Tobul forging herself a pick (including how to activate woodburning using the labor settings). In a proper game, I would usually pair the time intensive mining skill with an important but not time-consuming skill like Architecture.

Also, since we're meeting the dwarves one at a time, I added woodcutting and herbalism to a couple of the dwarves we meet later, just to keep them busy in the meantime.

Quote
You don't really want a new player wondering why his brewer isn't brewing. And the in-game interface to tweak labors/jobs isn't exactly newbie-friendly.

I wanted to teach the in-game labour interface first,but I'm planning to introduce Therapist as part of the Conditional Chapter dealing with the first migrant wave.

Quote
I wouldn't waste points on tanning, either. I just treat it as a hauling skill and enable it on everyone.

The single rank of tanning on one of the dwarves is more about having it pre-activated than actually needing the skill.

Quote
Stuff like stonecrafting and mechanic can be trained very quickly to competent level by spamming large pots (put emphasis on these somewhere, very important on embarks with no wood) and mechanisms with some of the first migrants.

The Mechanic is in Chapter 7, which is written but not posted yet (when we get there, a second entrance will already be in place so we can immediately start building traps as part of the same lesson). The Stonecrafter is in Chapter 8, along with nest boxes and crafts. Don't worry, I'll be extolling the virtues of Large Pots pretty fervently.

Quote
If you really want a soldier, he shouldn't have important round-the-clock skills.

Yeah, I agree. I wouldn't usually bring military dwarves on embark, but I wanted to make sure I had dwarves I could name when I was teaching how to make a squad.

Quote
I usually start, on non-evil biomes, with:
- miner
- miner
- brewer
- planter
- carpenter with a couple points on the broker skills (appraising and judge of intent)
- mason with 1-2 points on architect
- depends on embark: can be woodcutter (embark with trees), stonecrafter (embark with no trees), smith if I want to kickstart an early metal industry

At the beginning I turn off everything from the miners (except mining obviously), while the others keep all the hauling labors.
Then, as the population permits, I gradually start turning off the hauling stuff from the 'professionals'.
Usually in the first two waves I start training:
- stonecrafter
- mechanic
- bookkeeper/manager
- engraver
- second planter (I never play with more than 100 dwarves, and two dedicated legendary planters will produce an obscene amount of plants)

Metal-related jobs depend mostly on the biome. On peaceful embarks, I usually start the metal industry with the second-year migrant tsunami.

Mind you, I don't disagree with your embark skills. But I think it could get confusing for new players.

Do you mind if I add some of your post to a future part of the guide? I'm planning to write a section for people who've finished the guide and are looking for advice on their own first embark, and I would like to include a few different ideas to emphasise the whole "no single right answer" thing.

------------

With only 7 starting dwarves, everyone has to do multiple jobs for a while.  It's normal, and learning how to turn labors on & off is important.  Nobody's ever going to agree on the "best" allocation of starting skills or labors, and the guide even mentions this point of disagreement. ;)

P.S. Personally I do not consider Brewing to be such an important job -- certainly not to the point where you'd dedicate one of your starting seven to doing that exclusively.  I might give a skill point or two in Brewing to someone, but more often I'll just assign the Brewing labor to some random schmuck, or wait for a migrant.

This. I often count brewing as a "half-labour", something which isn't time-filling enough to dedicate a whole dwarf to, but will take away too much time to be paired with a full-time labour like masonry. I pair it with a second "half labour" on the same dwarf.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 11:37:34 am by Nice Save »
Logged

Dunamisdeos

  • Bay Watcher
  • Duggin was the hero we needed.
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2014, 11:35:25 am »

Quote
You don't really want a new player wondering why his brewer isn't brewing. And the in-game interface to tweak labors/jobs isn't exactly newbie-friendly.
Quote
I wanted to teach the in-game labour interface first,but I'm planning to introduce Therapist as part of the Conditional Chapter dealing with the first migrant wave.
Quote
The single rank of tanning on one of the dwarves is more about having it pre-activated than actually needing the skill.

I fully agree with this. It's much better to have one and not need it, than to have to switch a dwarf from something else at the last minute. Planning ahead is the secret to a successful fort!

Also, I always feel that it is important to bring a dwarf with [teacher] trained. If you plan on doing a lot about training and military, a dwarf with some levels in teacher is 100% invaluable. On that point: As soon as I start mining, I dig out an area large enough to hold ALL of my goods, and post the dogs near it. Prevents thievery and rot.

As far an initial embark goes, this guide certainly shouldn't become obsolete, but it sounds like some of the later chapters may need to be edited.
Logged
FACT I: Post note art is best art.
FACT II: Dunamisdeos is a forum-certified wordsmith.
FACT III: "All life begins with Post-it notes and ends with Post-it notes. This is the truth! This is my belief!...At least for now."
FACT IV: SPEECHO THE TRUSTWORM IS YOUR FRIEND or BEHOLD: THE FRUIT ENGINE 3.0

Nice Save

  • Bay Watcher
  • Suddenly:
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2014, 11:46:06 am »

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Chapter 4 is now up.

Quote
You don't really want a new player wondering why his brewer isn't brewing. And the in-game interface to tweak labors/jobs isn't exactly newbie-friendly.
Quote
I wanted to teach the in-game labour interface first,but I'm planning to introduce Therapist as part of the Conditional Chapter dealing with the first migrant wave.
Quote
The single rank of tanning on one of the dwarves is more about having it pre-activated than actually needing the skill.

I fully agree with this. It's much better to have one and not need it, than to have to switch a dwarf from something else at the last minute. Planning ahead is the secret to a successful fort!

Also, I always feel that it is important to bring a dwarf with [teacher] trained. If you plan on doing a lot about training and military, a dwarf with some levels in teacher is 100% invaluable. On that point: As soon as I start mining, I dig out an area large enough to hold ALL of my goods, and post the dogs near it. Prevents thievery and rot.

As far an initial embark goes, this guide certainly shouldn't become obsolete, but it sounds like some of the later chapters may need to be edited.

Yeah, the storage room is the first thing mined out. The next part I need to post, Interlude 1, will introduce stockpile customisation and start the free dwarves moving the goods down there. Then in Chapter 7 we'll put a sentry dog out.

On the impending obsolescence front, I just remembered that the plants are going to be changed in the new version, so that might need to be taken into account.

Ai Shizuka

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #23 on: June 16, 2014, 11:47:29 am »



Do you mind if I add some of your post to a future part of the guide? I'm planning to write a section for people who've finished the guide and are looking for advice on their own first embark, and I would like to include a few different ideas to emphasise the whole "no single right answer" thing.


Sure, go ahead. Embark planning and the first couple years are the parts I enjoy the most about DF. Usually I get bored when my forts are more estabilished.
There's a million possible succesful combinations and nobody's ever going to agree about the best.

I play and post with therapist in mind, so adding tanning to all haulers and not-yet-employed specialists takes literally one click (I nickname the 'professionals' and leave the others without, so I have two clear sections).
I agree on having it pre-activated when playing without therapist. One less thing to remember at the beginning.
Logged

Nice Save

  • Bay Watcher
  • Suddenly:
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #24 on: June 16, 2014, 12:56:59 pm »



Do you mind if I add some of your post to a future part of the guide? I'm planning to write a section for people who've finished the guide and are looking for advice on their own first embark, and I would like to include a few different ideas to emphasise the whole "no single right answer" thing.


Sure, go ahead. Embark planning and the first couple years are the parts I enjoy the most about DF. Usually I get bored when my forts are more estabilished.
There's a million possible succesful combinations and nobody's ever going to agree about the best.

I play and post with therapist in mind, so adding tanning to all haulers and not-yet-employed specialists takes literally one click (I nickname the 'professionals' and leave the others without, so I have two clear sections).
I agree on having it pre-activated when playing without therapist. One less thing to remember at the beginning.

Awesome, thanks for that. It'll probably be a while before I get to that section.

I usually play with Therapist too, and I split my dwarves 3 ways - the pros, who do their specialised jobs and don't haul, the peasants, who haul and do all the misc jobs like tanning and milling (anything without quality modifiers), and the haulers, who just haul and are generally also my soldiers.

Edit - Interlude 1 and chapter 5 are now up.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:30:51 pm by Nice Save »
Logged

sal880612m

  • Bay Watcher
  • [SANITY:OPTIONAL]
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #25 on: June 16, 2014, 04:23:10 pm »

I read through all the current chapters and made notes as I went. Most are just raw suggestions and thoughts that occurred as I went through it and you are free to take them or leave them, but they are things I think are worth considering or would provide some benefit to the presentation or usefulness of the guide. Some may be blatantly outside of what you consider the guides purpose so feel free to ignore them if that is the case. Good work!

1- Spoiler your images. I am using an old out of the box non-widescreen monitor at the moment and without spoilers the only scrollbar is at the bottom of the post and I need to scroll the entire post or open the image in another tab if I want to see the full things.
 
2- I don't think animal/creature descriptions are entirely cosmetic.
Spoiler: Mostly Untested theory (click to show/hide)

3- The Ascii is fine, but you might consider using and Ascii tileset so that width and height look the same. Or presenting an alternate version of the initial file that does. For a tutorial Ascii makes considerably more sense than a graphics tileset especially since there are some graphical issues with text and tilesets but the uneven width/height can be gamebreaking. This is more of an OCD-type issue on my part, my brain can no longer stop screaming that the tile width and height are different. Also consider making special note of the fact that x and y do not appear the same length.

4- I get telling them what to dig out when you did in Chapter 1 but you really should show them as well. If you plan on revisiting them and doing so in later chapters link to what it should look like.

5- I would consider putting a rectangle around the carpenter's workshop. I know the image is small but their screen won't necessarily be, so the quicker they can see how much or little difference they should expect to see the quicker they can get back to it.
Spoiler: Note (click to show/hide)

6- I don't know if it works on the starting seven but I am pretty certain you can alter what labours are activated when a dwarf appears in the init file. By default this is set to SKILLS but there are other options.

7- Maybe it doesn't matter and you are fine to do so but I would stay away from negatively emphasizing the usefullness of any skill in an objective sense. "A skill I rarely/never use" and "A rarely useful skill" are okay but "another useless skill" isn't. Main reason here is to stop people from thinking they can't or shouldn't use those skills.

8- When primarily dealing with the menu get rid of the rest of the screen shot unless it is in some way vital.

9-
Spoiler: Random Thought (click to show/hide)

10- When you talk about resizing farm plots or zones for that matter consider mentioning the maximum size or that there is one.

11- Fertilizer is considerably effective when you have small farms and unskilled planters. Not worth noting during chapter four but worthwhile noting somewhere else.

12- Crops that aren't year round have a downside currently. If you plant too close to the end of the last season a crop can grow in you can lose your seeds and if you don't have any grown crops it can be problematic to get more seeds.
 
13- While grazers are added to the pasture of their mother anything hatched in a nest box is not.

14- Consider stylizing commands and keystrokes. s doesn't stand out nearly as much as s or 's' especially in text walls.

Spelling/Grammar/Typo errors:
-Near the start of Chapter One you say "their own time and an an order of their choosing" when I believe you mean "their         own time and in an order of their choosing".
-While Designating areas for digging you say "one 2x2 and the other 3x3" but the image implies that one of the rooms is 2x3.
Logged
"I was chopping off little bits of 'im till he talked, startin' at the toes."
"You probably should have stopped sometime before his eyes."

Nice Save

  • Bay Watcher
  • Suddenly:
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #26 on: June 16, 2014, 05:15:40 pm »

Thanks sal880612m! Your post has given me quite a bit to think about, but I need to get some sleep now (it's been a long day). I'll do a proper reply in the morning.

greycat

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2014, 06:29:16 pm »

Quote
f: Fertilize, FT 0/4, s: Seas Fert (N) – this has to do with spreading potash on the field to make it grow faster.

Potash doesn't actually make plants grow faster.  They take the same amount of time to mature.  It just means you get more of them.

Quote
As the remains decay, the symbols will turn white then disappear. If the remains are inside, they will generate miasma as they rot, which is clouds of stench that upset your dwarves.

Vermin remains do not generate miasma in vanilla 0.34.11.  They did back in 40d, and maybe some versions after that, but the miasma was actually removed a while ago.

Vermin remains may generate miasma in some mods (e.g. Masterwork).  That one took me by surprise.

Quote
If they're too close to an in-use workshop they might sleep uneasily or be woken, making them unhappy.

I believe that noise is only made by mining, woodcutting, and a few other activities (deconstruction of buildings maybe?).  Workshops are normally silent.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 06:57:56 pm by greycat »
Logged
Hell, if nobody's suffocated because of it, it hardly counts as a bug! -- StLeibowitz

sal880612m

  • Bay Watcher
  • [SANITY:OPTIONAL]
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2014, 08:42:05 pm »

<-snip->
Potash doesn't actually make plants grow faster.  They take the same amount of time to mature.  It just means you get more of them.
<-snip->

Nice catch. Engraving makes noise too does it not?
Logged
"I was chopping off little bits of 'im till he talked, startin' at the toes."
"You probably should have stopped sometime before his eyes."

Blue_Dwarf

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Tabarkel: A play-along tutorial for a complete newcomer
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2014, 08:57:49 pm »

12- Crops that aren't year round have a downside currently. If you plant too close to the end of the last season a crop can grow in you can lose your seeds and if you don't have any grown crops it can be problematic to get more seeds.

Dwarves don't usually plant them towards the end of the season, I've never seen it causing troubles.
Logged
Crafting Statistics 42.06Farming Statistics

Blue Dwarf has been happy lately. He did some !!science!! recently. He admired a fine forum post lately. He was enraged by a forum troll recently. He was upset by the delayed release of the new version of Dwarf Fortress lately. He took joy in planning a noble's death recently.
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5