Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Toaster]

4mask:

And if Toly is a mafia ally, isn't it a better idea to kill the scum first?

Rest of the answer is coming soon (along with everything else), but I wanted to hit this one really quickly:  Why?  Since Mafia-Ally obstructs the town win, getting rid of him has to happen at some point, so why not now?

Wait, mafia ally's obstruct town victory?

Oh look, 4mask doesn't know the town wincon!

I wouldn't think so, otherwise they'd just be uninformed mafia.
Right?

Looks like Flabort doesn't either!

[4maskwolf]

4mask:

And if Toly is a mafia ally, isn't it a better idea to kill the scum first?

Rest of the answer is coming soon (along with everything else), but I wanted to hit this one really quickly:  Why?  Since Mafia-Ally obstructs the town win, getting rid of him has to happen at some point, so why not now?

Wait, mafia ally's obstruct town victory?

Oh look, 4mask doesn't know the town wincon!

No, I was confused as to the nature of my wincon.  I'm used to having to eliminate the mafia faction only in order to win, as with Smstr w/ Love, where eliminating all of the original mafia players won us the game.  We did not have to eliminate Mastahcheese (a converted scum) in order to win, or at least that's what I took away from it.  In GBU, the town did not have to eliminate the third parties, even though some of those third parties appeared mafia to inspects, and in my book a mafia ally is a third party.

Meanwhile, unvote, I stand corrected.

[4maskwolf]

To more clearly state: as far as I know, mafia ally's have a wincon along the lines of "you win when the mafia wins".  The mafia wincon is something along the lines of "you win when you are the majority".  Town wincons usually look like "you win when all anti-town factions have been eliminated".

Now, here's how I interperet this outside of BYOR's: I look at these and say "the mafia don't win until true mafia is the majority in the town, because their wincon refers to the mafia being the majority.  The mafia ally wins if the mafia achieve their goal.  However, since the mafia ally does not help the mafia win, per se, they are not anti-town.  Thus, the town can win even if the mafia allies are alive."  This is the premise my game in the queue works off of: that only the true mafia prevent the town from winning.  In that game, there are numerous ally third-parties who each have their own powers and wincons that include an ally victory condition, but that also require another condition to be met in order to win.  That's the reason I don't know how my wincon works.

[Silthuri]

4mask
What specifically about your wincon confused you? It is specifically stated that you have to kill mafia allies as town. Shouldn't it follow that they obstruct town victory in this game? Unless you didn't have the town PM to begin with so you wouldn't know...

[4maskwolf]

*reads own role pm*
*facepalms*
I only read as far as "you win when all anti-town factions are dead". I didn't actually bother to read the list afterwards. Durr...

[flabort]

I wouldn't think so, otherwise they'd just be uninformed mafia.
Right?

Looks like Flabort doesn't either!

I just didn't read it through, I realized afterwards that it did indeed say allies.
While I was reading through the list of win cons, I thought I was validated when the mafia allies didn't mention it.
But you seemed so insistent, and I got a reminder to check my PM, so of course I did. That's where I realized this:

However, I realized that there is something else. Town wins when all anti-town factions win, and then in the parenthesis, it says respective allies and brothers; Yes, while it's not obvious and I didn't think it through, town cannot win while a mafia-ally is alive.

I had thought that anti-town factions included SKs, cults, mafia, etc, but never for a moment thought that I should actually check inside the parentheses because they'd be different than what I thought.

*reads own role pm*
*facepalms*
I only read as far as "you win when all anti-town factions are dead". I didn't actually bother to read the list afterwards. Durr...

Yeah, I pretty much did the same thing.

Obviously, Toaster, this isn't going to make you any less suspicious.But here:

Be careful when reading role PMs, and make sure you fully understand your wincons.

And I can't change the fact that earlier I claimed to write 4mask off as town, you as basically neutral, and you interpreted my attack on Ottofar (in the same paragraph) as support somehow.

HOW DO YOU INTERPRET AN ATTACK AS SUPPORT?

Also, by forcing us to explain this, you're making it so that anyone else who may not have read the town wincon thoroughly enough, or may not have read it at all, can just read this discussion and avoid slipping on it. Why did you point at us so early?

4mask I'd like you to lend some credibility to your town claim, please reveal some more about your role. Otherwise we both come off looking like scum.

[Jack A T]

Be careful when reading role PMs, and make sure you fully understand your wincons.

I will note that I did not care what alignment(s) 4maskwolf and flabort were when I said that, and that that was general advice.

[4maskwolf]

4mask I'd like you to lend some credibility to your town claim, please reveal some more about your role. Otherwise we both come off looking like scum.

Frankly, Flabort, it's not my problem how you come off looking, particularly since you are scum.  The blatant rolefishing proves it.  I will tell you that there is a breadcrumb hidden in my second post (well, not so much hidden, but it doesn't mean what you think it means about my role).  Beyond that, you get nothing, rolefishing scumbiscuit.

Now, on to my proof that he is scum:

He was the second one to post confusion about the whole wincon thing.  Not the first, the second.  Which is significant, because it would be an exceedingly bad play for a scum player to ask a question about the town wincon first.  That in and of itself isn't particularly damning, he could have been just another townie mistaking his role.  However, he then follows up with this:

Reading that list of wincons, a mafia-ally "wins when mafia wins", nothing about counting towards mafia victory. However, I realized that there is something else. Town wins when all anti-town factions win, and then in the parenthesis, it says respective allies and brothers; Yes, while it's not obvious and I didn't think it through, town cannot win while a mafia-ally is alive.

He decides to declare that he went and read through the list of wincons.  Not checked his own wincon, he READ THE LIST.  If he was, as he claims to be, a nice, innocent townie, he wouldn't have to read the list now would he have.  He says it again here:

While I was reading through the list of win cons, I thought I was validated when the mafia allies didn't mention it.

(bolding mine).
He says this not once, but TWICE.  Why would he need to do that if he was a townie.  One quick check of the pm and we're all good, right?

So, Mr. Flabort, why don't you tell us what your real alignment is? Are you a scum, as a strongly suspect?  Are you a serial killer?  Or are you a jester, in which case we are wasting our time.

[PTDfun]

Varee: Can you list 3 things about this game so far that seem odd to you?

Ottofar:

I'm gonna take the time to post today.

Was this a self-referential post? I didn't see you post anything else.

MyOwnWorstEnemy: Sorry for confusing your sex.

flabort:

MyOwnWorstEnemy: Something feels off, but I can't put my finger on it. Says she isn't going to contribute to RVS because she's not very aggressive, and does well without RVS questions. Builds cases on other people's interactions instead. I'm going to say neutral read.

Would you attempt to "put your finger on it"?

Jiokuy:

Hey PTDfun: I think you have my confused with someone else in your read.

Unless you are referring to my comment "victory does not equal survival" which was not intended as a direct Joker reference. Excluding the survivor and it's variants e.g. guardian, almost every common role/alignment can win while dead. Even a SK could theoretically win if there are no living players (themselves included).

----------------------------------------

PTDfun: Your reads especially mine come across as lazy, but your other posts appear to have some content.

victory does not require survival.

First mention of jester in game:

4maskwolf: Under what circumstances would you lynch a claimed Jester?

I don't have you confused with anybody. My read on you contains the few things that stood out to me. I don't think it's fair to say it was lazy when you had not given much content to work with. I gave a neutral read, and that's what I have. Why did you just use quote marks when you were only paraphrasing yourself?

[flabort]

4mask I will direct you to the first quote where I expressed confusion that you quoted of mine, the one you didn't cut up.
I read the role list, and I got the information on ALLIES from there. I separated the town wincon in that quote from the allies wincon. It does not specifically say that I got the town win con from the list of wincons.
Furthermore, in the next quote, you cut it up. You posted where I looked at the list to confirm that allies mentioned nothing of the sort, but you cut out the part where I said I checked my PM. And the part where I got a reminder, via PM, from Jack.

However, you are right. I'm a third party, and while I did get a reminder from Jack, it wasn't to check my role PM, it was to act more town. As much as I specifically didn't say that I got my information of the Town Wincon, I specifically didn't say that I didn't.

PTDfun Sorry, I still have no clue what's bugging me. Is that all you want to ask me about?

So, Mr. Flabort, why don't you tell us what your real alignment is? Are you a scum, as a strongly suspect?  Are you a serial killer?  Or are you a jester, in which case we are wasting our time.

[sarcasm]Sure. I'm a lyncher.[/sarcasm]
Town-ally/Survivor. I am not town, I only win if town wins, but I still lose if I die. As a third party, I didn't get specifics on Town's wincon, but it's still in my best interests to work with town.

[4maskwolf]

A fascinating but poorly fabricated fake claim.  You see, the original alignment sheet from Wuba (where you went to get your information, no less) says you will get ONE of these 13 alignments.  Now, I note that [alignment name]-ally and survivor are both on there.  However, note that both of them are not combined into one alignment ANYWHERE on the list.  So your claim does not hold water: Jack himself stated that he is using the BYOR 12 wincons with the only exception being survivor and SPECIFICALLY states what the new survivor wincon is:

Yes. BYOR 12 wincons apply with the exception of survivor, who must survive to the end of the game if one exists (should have posted this initially... inexperienced mod mistakes...).

Now, also, you say that Jack told you to "act more town".  This, along with your horrific fake-claim, leads me to believe that you are either mafia, mafia-ally, or serial killer, and in any of these cases you HAVE to go, because you are impeding the town wincon.

[flabort]

I'm not actually surprised you figured out it was fake so fast. OK. I admit that I do have a wincon that impeeds town victory. But I can fail my wincon without dying, and can still work with town.
All you need to do is make my wincon fail, and then I will actually be a Town-ally, and no longer impede your victory.

And do that by night killing MOWE. I am a Lyncher.

*dun dun dun*

That said, I want to play to win, so in order to further my current goal, MOWE. Sorry, nothing personal. But I assume that you won't actually get lynched.

Town, you can avoid lynching me for now. As long as MOWE remains unlynched, I will otherwise work with you to hunt other scum. If you should find reason to lynch MOWE, I will gladly work with you for that end. If MOWE should be nightkilled, I will still work with you because I will be your ally.

In other words, I must rely on and work with town in order to achieve my victory, regardless of whether I achieve my initial condition or not.

Of course, Town cannot win if I'm alive and MOWE is alive at the same time. However, if MOWE should prove to be town, then when all other scum are killed, we can kill MOWE, and though she will be dead, she will still win. I will win as well. It would be better if a town vig does the kill on her in that case, though, rather than a lynch, just in case my victory as a Lyncher interferes with Town's win; obviously, my victory as a Town-ally cannot interfere with town's win.

Also, if I die first but you should lynch MOWE later, I can still win. If I die, and then MOWE dies at night, I assume I still become a Town-Ally posthumously, and can still win with town.

So all I ask is that we refrain from killing me right now, and we can kill me later.

[4maskwolf]

Jackattack: If a third party fails their wincon, do they immediately leave the game or do they stick around as town-allies.

Now, I would like to note that the town pm specifically says we need to kill lynchers in order to win.  As such, lynching you now, while not quite as useful as killing off scum, is certainly better than lynching MOWE or nightkilling MOWE or doing anything else.  Though actually, another mod question:

Jack: Will a lyncher's target always be a member of the town, or can a member of the mafia also be a lynch target?  Can a third party be the lynch target?

[EPenguin]

So I wrote up half a post with stuff regarding flabort, then noticed his latest post and claim of lyncher. So that post is basically obsolete. *sigh*

Starting over...

In light of the latest post, I'm in favor of lynching flabort. It's no gurantee we have a vig, even if we do, we shouldn't just off MOWE. Lyncher's targets are, in my experience, a random player, or a random town player. So there's a strong chance we're offing a townie just to gain a townie. Ain't no way mafia is killing MOWE for us. And that's all assuming Flabort is actually a lyncher and not something more threatening.

Either way, I'm in favor of lynching the claimed third party.

Flabort

Now I need to finish reading.

[Silthuri]

Sorry Flabort, but I would very much like to stay alive.