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All the time.

2 (13.3%)

Sometimes.

9 (60%)

Only when there's a new release.

2 (13.3%)

Never. ((get out))

2 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 13

[USEC_OFFICER]

-snip-

I am obviously having trouble turning my ideas into words, so bear with me for a while as I try and clarify.

Hell does not have a strict hierarchy of ranks. Heaven is the one with that sort of thing, due to their bureaucratic nature. Hell is a much more looser organization, with responsibilities and powers haphazardly thrown about at the whims of those in charge. So the ranking system would be something like this:

Top Tier: Satan (Not a title, but the person. He can give himself whatever title he wants, after all.)
Upper Tier: Emperor, Great King, King, Grand Prince, Prince, Great Marquise, Marquise
Mid-Tier: Great Duke, Duke, Great Earl, Earl, Great President, President
Lower Tier: Knight, Great Marshal, Marshal, Captain
Grunts: Drude, Goblin, Imp, Cambion

So obviously the Tiers are order in relative power. So Satan is at the top, with the upper tier underneath him, and the mid-tier underneath those fellows, and so on. And at the bottom you have the grunts, who by definitely have no vassals underneath them, and thus are the weakest and least powerful demons in hell. Now, power between the different tiers is obvious at a glance. A Duke must get more respect than a Knight or Captain, since they're in the mid-tier whereas the other two ranks are in the low tier. But within the tiers it isn't as clear. Whether a Prince is more powerful than a Grand King or not depends on a host of factors, and what kind of respect they need to receive varies too. So the ranks in the different tiers are not equal. A Marquise can be seated closer to the host at a demonic feast than an Emperor, due to a host of expectations and special rules that built up over billions of years. The only thing that is certain is that the ranks between the tiers are more rigidly set. So no matter how much real power a Marshal could have, they'll never have as much prestige as a President, due to the obvious difference in ranks.

Am I making sense here, or just rambling to myself?

[Sanure]

Just remember that each member of the Ars Goetia gained their ranks due to some unique ability or skill-set that they exceled in. King Ashmedai was the corrupter, he excelled in warping the minds of mortals. King Baal/Bael was known as the teacher of invisibility and is one of the Seven princes of hell. President Barbas is known to cause or cure diseases and to teach mechanical arts as well as change men into other shapes. They haven't changed ranks since they were sealed by Solomon. A few have dual ranks, like Gaap, or Vine, or Ronove, but that is besides the point.

Otherwise, You're ranking system would work, but it would have to be more diverse to those that don't fit into a specific tier or fits in between them.

[Rolepgeek]

Why president?

Are you just kinda grabbing random titles and tiers?

Real feudal systems already have names for these kinds of things why not go with them?

I mean, first off, Satan would basiclly be the only Emperor and King, there might be multiple Princes, but Marquis is a lower rank than Duke, and you're completely ignoring Baron, Count, Sheriff...

I can make a list of titles in order, basically from Ruler (Lucifer, apparently, since we're using mainstream Christian mythology *rolls eyes*), which needs no more grand of a title, through High King, Grand Prince, Viscount, Baron, down to Sheriff and Marshal. But there's no real reason to use English titles, anyway. Why not Arabic? Or Greek, or Latin, or any of the thousand other languages in existence? Why does Hell use English? Particularly if it's been around for 'billions' of years.

Spekaing of which, the whole 'everything is unspeakably old and unchanging and raaah' thing is stupid, unneccessary, and boring. If nothing ever happens, why does it get involved in the plot? If you can live forever, why bother doing anything?

And why is Heaven some sort of beauracratic purgatory, anyway?

This is all rather ridiculous, you know.

More stuff: Why is sloth more powerful than lust/pride/greed/any of the others? Why are we going by the seven deadly sins of Christian mythology, and why do we do so without including ones such as Prejudice(feeding off the perceived differences between people that cause strife and hate, whether it be religion or skin color or wealth, could probably have a better name) or Cowardice(people can do some crazy shit when they're scared)?

Mmmmrrrr. >.>:[

[Sanure]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_demons_in_the_Ars_Goetia

As for the last part, Sloth demons are typically more powerful than Wrath or the others due to the immense power that weighs them down.

As for Prejudice and Cowardice, we have both Pride, to which prejudice is a part of, and Envy, which cowerdice is a part of.

[Sanure]

Also, discussing how we can make Hell better lore wise goes a lot better without the Sarcasm, eye rolling, and the word stupid and it's similes.

[Rolepgeek]

...Sloth demons are weighed down by being powerful?

What?

I wasn't using sarcasm at any point, by the way.

But fine, let me put it another way.

I don't think we should use Christian mythology as the basis for the primary underworld dimension in this setting.

I don't really see Cowardice as being part of Envy, and Prejudice may involve Pride, but I don't think it's wholly subsumed by it. Gluttony and Lust and Envy being subsumed by Greed seems much more likely than those.

I also think that Hell being stupendously old and nothing ever actually changing in it is unnecessary, boring, and a poor design decision.

I think there is very little reason to involve the Ars Goetia, though I understand the logic behind it. I don't think it's necessary, but it's already been done, which is probably the basis everything else came off from.

[USEC_OFFICER]

Just remember that each member of the Ars Goetia gained their ranks due to some unique ability or skill-set that they exceled in.

They haven't changed ranks since they were sealed by Solomon. A few have dual ranks, like Gaap, or Vine, or Ronove, but that is besides the point.

It's been centuries since they were sealed by Solomon. Unless sealed means 'exchanging phone numbers' or something like that, their prestige relative to their rivals would have shrunk considerably. You can't expect to sit around for several years without suffering because of it, after all.

I can make a list of titles in order, basically from Ruler (Lucifer, apparently, since we're using mainstream Christian mythology *rolls eyes*), which needs no more grand of a title, through High King, Grand Prince, Viscount, Baron, down to Sheriff and Marshal. But there's no real reason to use English titles, anyway. Why not Arabic? Or Greek, or Latin, or any of the thousand other languages in existence? Why does Hell use English? Particularly if it's been around for 'billions' of years.

I used the titles that Sanure gave because I didn't have the time to look up/make up alternative titles. But I agree with you, given all of the different demons and their preferences in hell, they'd use a whole range of titles, from a whole rank of languages and mythologies. The English titles were more examples than rigid rules.

If nothing ever happens, why does it get involved in the plot?

As far as I know, the only demon who has gotten involved in the plot is Sen, who I'm sure has her own special reasons not shared by her fellows. And many other supernatural beings (angels, gods and the like) don't seem to care about plot either, so demons are hardly bucking the trend...

If you can live forever, why bother doing anything?

Power and prestige, I guess. Or demons are wired to act that way when Shys C'asmIhatehername made them. Or only a fraction of demons care about that kind of stuff, but since there's so many of them, the number of demons who care is sizable.

And why is Heaven some sort of beauracratic purgatory, anyway?

I'm probably over exaggerating the bureaucratic aspects of heaven, but angels did appear in the V2 thread. And they were pretty rule-bound from what I remember.

Why are we going by the seven deadly sins of Christian mythology, and why do we do so without including ones such as Prejudice(feeding off the perceived differences between people that cause strife and hate, whether it be religion or skin color or wealth, could probably have a better name) or Cowardice(people can do some crazy shit when they're scared)?

I've been suggesting that we include other sins besides the 7 classic ones...

I don't think we should use Christian mythology as the basis for the primary underworld dimension in this setting.

Christian mythology is pretty central to RotMG. Or at least the fluffy background bits. So can't really remove it without retconning a lot of stuff, but we could always tear out the guts and fiddle with it that way. If you know what I'm trying to say. _{I barely know.}

I don't think it's necessary, but it's already been done, which is probably the basis everything else came off from.

Nah, Ragnarok and Shys C'aembuggerhername is the basis of where that all came from. Sen and the Ars Goetia came later, from what I've remember/been told/seen.

[Sanure]

The Basis for the Sloth demons being powerful is due to what I read in Dante's Inferno.
Dante found a lot of powerful kings, princes, revolutionaries, and generals in Sloth. This was due to them not acting when they could have prevented terrible wars, murders, rebelions, and assassinations. Thus my reasoning for Sloth being stronger than Wrath or Pride is due to the powerful souls that would be found in the possession of SLoth demons, who would have to be very powerful to claim these souls.

As to think that we shouldn't use christian mythology, we aren't, though it may seem we are. I reference the Seven deadly sins due to a valid point that most, if not all, of the Ars goetia demons fall into each of the Seven categories.

As for Prejudice and Cowardice, If I use Dante's inferno as a reference, Cowards were actually sent to Limbo, having never full sinned, nor chose to do good. Prejudice was sent to the Ninth circle of hell, and frozen among the Traitors.

As for Hell being extremely old and unchaning was already set in stone in lore due to the relevant Heaven lore. It may seem boring, which is why we are changing it. If you have any suggestions for why Hell exists, I do urge you to post it so that we can discuss it.

Also, as to why we should or should not involve the Ars Goetia, It is part of the RotMG Lore and actively used in various plots. Hell, Maria has at least two or three of the Ars Goetia demons as contracts, and I actively use Osmodeus as an instrument of discord and !!fun!!. It's not the basis of were everything else came from, but it does make a good starting point for determining the ranks of demons.

FAKE EDIT: Gahh'd I was ninjad by USEC

[Sanure]

Just remember that each member of the Ars Goetia gained their ranks due to some unique ability or skill-set that they exceled in.

They haven't changed ranks since they were sealed by Solomon. A few have dual ranks, like Gaap, or Vine, or Ronove, but that is besides the point.

It's been centuries since they were sealed by Solomon. Unless sealed means 'exchanging phone numbers' or something like that, their prestige relative to their rivals would have shrunk considerably. You can't expect to sit around for several years without suffering because of it, after all.

The thing is that they weren't just sitting around doing nothing. They still have their freewill outside of being the servants of whoever happens to hold the seal of Solomon. Osmodeus, for example, has been improving his demon plated technology and seducing mortals into becoming his playthings.

[USEC_OFFICER]

Alright. But being sealed by Solomon doesn't mean that their ranks/prestige are sealed as well. Lots of other demons are jockeying for their spots after all, so they would still have to put in the effort to try and remain where they were. That's what I'm trying to say.

[Sanure]

Then we are in agreement?

[USEC_OFFICER]

I... think so? I'm just trying to avoid a strict and static hierarchy in favour for a complex and incomprehensible dogpile where every demon is competing for power and prestige with everyone else, creating a tangled mess of relations, responsibilities and powers. Just like a real feudal system. _{But not really.}

[Akroma]

BOOM


I am back bitches
careless construction workers played hack'n slash with various wires in fun colors, the entire block was TV and internetless.


also, the libera arcana is dead.

[smurfingtonthethird]

Count me in on Free Arcana genocide. I don't like them very much.

[Akroma]

on the upside, I had a lot of time to vastly expand the Icarus-Arc, that will now be portioned in 3 main and 2 other plots, instead of just being resolved in 2. Fun stuff will be had.