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How often do you play Dwarf Fortress?

All the time.
- 2 (13.3%)
Sometimes.
- 9 (60%)
Only when there's a new release.
- 2 (13.3%)
Never. ((get out))
- 2 (13.3%)

Total Members Voted: 13


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Author Topic: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: Stealing combat systems from an eroge  (Read 526901 times)

Kansa

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4035 on: August 02, 2014, 07:52:19 pm »

.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 07:04:55 am by Kansa »
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4036 on: August 02, 2014, 08:17:36 pm »

And sure, I was kind of hoping people would either come up with what they want to see in Youkai and tell me so I could write something up for it or toss me some spare writing to see if I could patch in. You know, make it like the group we are.

Well right now all we have about the Youkai is that they're one big Touhou reference more or less so... I don't really know what to add beyond that. They're supernatural beings who decided to hide from humans for... some reason. We should probably think up a reason why they decided to hide, despite being much more powerful than a normal human being. But other than that... Just make up the different places/societies/whatever they made while in hiding?
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smurfingtonthethird

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4037 on: August 02, 2014, 08:32:53 pm »

Yeah, magic attack multipliers need a nerf. I mean, a *2 attack for 4 mana? Shit's crazy. I think multiplies should be shifted down a tier, so:

Negligible: 0.5 ((the price you pay for free magics))
Small: 1
Medium: 1.5
Large: 2
etc.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 08:37:35 pm by smurfingtonthethird »
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4038 on: August 02, 2014, 08:40:31 pm »

*sigh*

How much mana do most people have, and how much magic do most people have. Honestly. That means that you are doing less damage than a physical character at basically all points, with a limited amount of uses, and having to pay for another different stat. Plus, 2* magic sounds real great right up til you roll a 3. And then you just wasted a bunch of mana for nothing. Or you miss. Or you get wandblocked by antimagic fields. Or. Or. Or.
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PrivateNomad

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4039 on: August 02, 2014, 08:41:10 pm »

Driving straight into the void at around 80mph sounds terrifying.

smurfingtonthethird

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4040 on: August 02, 2014, 09:00:12 pm »

*sigh*

How much mana do most people have, and how much magic do most people have. Honestly. That means that you are doing less damage than a physical character at basically all points, with a limited amount of uses, and having to pay for another different stat. Plus, 2* magic sounds real great right up til you roll a 3. And then you just wasted a bunch of mana for nothing. Or you miss. Or you get wandblocked by antimagic fields. Or. Or. Or.

At the moment, magic is doing 90% of our damage output. Granted, my idea was pretty shit, but it needs to be nerfed somehow.
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PrivateNomad

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4041 on: August 02, 2014, 09:00:58 pm »

Make it cost more mana?

kj1225

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4042 on: August 02, 2014, 09:01:49 pm »

Make resistance lower damage?
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4043 on: August 02, 2014, 09:06:33 pm »

Make enemies last longer?

Make magic damage somewhat more reliable but less overwhelming, like we thought of with Icarus' ability?

Lower enemy's defense? Give enemies more resistance? Make resistance apply proportionally to the size of the magic attack? Have armor affect magic more?

I mean, there's plenty of ways. I'm not saying the whole 'can't do physical damage' isn't annoying; I had a +13 to my rolls with Spensir, and I still couldn't do shit.
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kj1225

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4044 on: August 02, 2014, 09:09:25 pm »

It's not the +13 on your character that matters. It's the +13 in your heart that gives you the will to blast through even the toughest armor!
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Rolepgeek

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4045 on: August 02, 2014, 10:10:51 pm »

Starting a comparison thing.

Someone with a +3 Weapon attacking someone with +3 armor; both have a 12 in strength and defense.

Average chances to hit? Well, that depends. Since all that matters is whether you get higher than them, and I'm not sure how ties are resolved so I'll ignore them for the moment. With equal speed and skill, it'll average out as 1-1 chance to hit or miss. Really, it'll average out as that as long as the average rolls are equal. In cases where they aren't equal? I'm...not sure. Presumably it would be a straight ratio of likelihood based on the numbers for each die, if it's a straight roll. d12 versus d20, let's look at, for example.

1/12 chance of rolling a 1, which loses to all but 1/20 of subsequent results. Which means... 1/240 chance of tying, 19/240 chance of losing.
1/12 chance of rolling a 2, which loses to all but 2/20 of subsequent results, and ties in half of those. 1/240 chance of tying, 1/240 chance of winning, 18/240 chance of losing.
1/12 chance of rolling a 3, which loses to all but 3/20 of subsequent results, 2/3 of which are victories. 1/240 chance of tying, 2/240 chance of winning, 17 chance of losing.
I think a pattern becomes apparent, yes? A total of 12/240(1/20, or 5%) chance of tying(which, in turn, tells me that the chance of a tie will always be 1/[higher stat] disregarding bonuses to rolls directly). 66/240 chance of winning, or 11/40, aka 27.5% chance of winning. Which means the opponent has a...[100-[27.5+5]]% chance of winning. Which is 67.5%. 67.5/27.5=~2.45, while the plain stat comparison shows a ratio of 1.67. While the win/loss ratio can't be implicitly trusted, as the higher the stats get, the less and less likely there's a tie(which seems an unfortunate side effect of this system. :/ One would want more ties in combatants with extremely high stats, for dramatic effect, I think), the general idea gets across; as the difference in stats grows, the straight win/loss ratio shifts more than proportionally. One would think it will start to level out at a certain point, but this is untrue; while the percentages will certainly stop shifting as greatly, the lower win chance compared to loss chance is such that it more than counterbalances. People tend to forget that 66% means a 2-1 ratio.

But this isn't even getting into average damage. This becomes more difficult, for what should be obvious reasons; the exact difference between the results matters immensely, now. It is not so simple as a flat numbers comparison. Let's test based on what the defender rolls for defense, shall we? After all, we can then find the average damage dealt with such a roll and see if we can find a pattern, to reduce workload.
1/12 chance of rolling a 1 for defense. This means an average damage for the attacker of 5.5. The average roll for a d12 is 6.5. I'm glad these match up, so far. It won't last.
1/12 chance of rolling a 2. Average damage would then be ~4.583*. The asterisk indicates the underlined sections repeat into infinity. And as you can see, the average damage isn't 4.5; not exactly. Which makes sense. Otherwise, rolling a 6 would mean he couldn't damage you. Let's continue.
1/12 chance of rolling a 3. Average damage would thus be 3.75. Interesting. A change form the initial value of 2.75. What relation does this have to 3, or 6.5, I have to wonder. Perhaps there isn't one. That would be unfortunate.
1/12 chance of rolling a 4. Average damage of 3. The change is decresing more significantly with each iteration, now. Excellent.
1/12 chance of rolling a 5. Average damage? 2.3*. Again, the asterisk means it repeats into infinity. I may be seeing a pattern now, but I'm not sure. It can't last, I'm fairly sure.
1/12 chance of rolling a 6. We're halfway done! Average damage of 1.75. Hmmmm.  The pattern certainly didn't continue in any way I can see. Guess we have to keep going.
1/12 chance of rolling a 7. Avg. Dmg. 1.25. So the pattern did continue, but more slowly. Interesting.
1/12 chance of rolling an 8. Avgdmg 0.83*.
A nine -> 0.5
A ten -> 0.25
An eleven -> 0.083*.
And of course, twelve -> zero.

But what's the real average damage, with all these averages, then? It certainly can't be all that high, given what we've seen. So, time for more math. 23.83*/12 is 1.9861*.

So, average damage of about 2, with equal stats. When it hits. Wondrous.  ::) Isn't physical damage supposed to be more reliable than this? It certainly doesn't seem like it.

So, why not take a look at magic damage?

Again, let's go with a magic of 12 and a resistance of 12, and, oh, armor of +3 to be true to the game, even if it does make this that much more difficult. Mages are often thought of as glass cannons, so we'll just assume the attacker put some points in mana from defense and resistance. Let's test, oh, Negligible, Small, and Medium. 1*, 1.5*, and 2*. To give a sense of scale, you see. But, I think I'll just present the finished results, instead of making us go through it all step by step again.
Negligible; Ooh, that hurts. All told, an average damage of 0.83*. That's just pathetic, really.
Small; Don't feel like doing the math for every single one, here, as it's fairly complicated and I can't do an average of averages here so easily, but as far as I can tell, it's gonna be an average of a little over 2.
Medium; This one probably ends up being an average of around 5 or 6, based on the way the pattern seems to be going; mostly in the form of huge burst damage.

The only difference, though, is that Magic has a limit on how many times it can be used; due to the immense power, however, and the way everyone's built as glass cannons, that never becomes an issue, when you people fight in a group.

On a similar note, getting defense or resistance is far less effective for tanking than simply pumping your health stat into the stratosphere. If I had left Spensir's Defense and Resistance stats at 5 or 6? With armor and Vital Surge(which he would be able to use for longer with more health) applying flat bonuses to rolls, he would be incredibly tank, with a health stat of, oh, you know, just 180 or so.

I think I have found some flaws within the system. How to fix them? I have no idea!
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Empiricist

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4046 on: August 02, 2014, 10:41:59 pm »

And sure, I was kind of hoping people would either come up with what they want to see in Youkai and tell me so I could write something up for it or toss me some spare writing to see if I could patch in. You know, make it like the group we are.

Well right now all we have about the Youkai is that they're one big Touhou reference more or less so... I don't really know what to add beyond that. They're supernatural beings who decided to hide from humans for... some reason. We should probably think up a reason why they decided to hide, despite being much more powerful than a normal human being. But other than that... Just make up the different places/societies/whatever they made while in hiding?
Some of them do have reasons for their stealth. Kitsune can masquerade as humans as can some transhuman types such as honne-onna (which do so on a regular basis), some types such as yuki-onna live in more remote areas and may have been repelled away as civilizations expanded. Finally some entities such as gasha-dokuro have innate stealth capabilities, enough to conceal a giant skeleton that stalks the night, hunting down travelers in some cases.

If I recall correctly some text on japanese folklore limited the formation of tsukumogami to non-modern objects, I think it had something to do with electricity or mass production.
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smurfingtonthethird

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4047 on: August 02, 2014, 10:44:34 pm »

Very few of the physical attackers have abilities which actually boost their attack strength, like we saw with Icarus's rocket smashing:

Quote
Icarus [5] boosts her skill and strength by +25% (-4 mana), and ignites her jetboots on full throttle, accelerating to incredible speeds. She shoots toward a construct in what can only be described as rocket powered jousting! [16] VS [4] smashing it, dealing [20*1.5+4!] VS [9], dealing 25 damage, and receiving [6] VS [3] 3 recoil damage! 36 health remaining.

That is probably the highest amount of physical damage ever done so far. Do more of these special attacks!
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kj1225

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4048 on: August 02, 2014, 10:46:36 pm »

Okay, my write up will take much longer as I'm making a character for a different game.

Also, tsukumogami are definitely not extinct. Really, people love hand made stuff.
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Empiricist

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Re: Rise of the Magic Girls v3 OOC: My Shame is Eternal
« Reply #4049 on: August 02, 2014, 10:55:55 pm »

Very few of the physical attackers have abilities which actually boost their attack strength, like we saw with Icarus's rocket smashing:

Quote
Icarus [5] boosts her skill and strength by +25% (-4 mana), and ignites her jetboots on full throttle, accelerating to incredible speeds. She shoots toward a construct in what can only be described as rocket powered jousting! [16] VS [4] smashing it, dealing [20*1.5+4!] VS [9], dealing 25 damage, and receiving [6] VS [3] 3 recoil damage! 36 health remaining.

That is probably the highest amount of physical damage ever done so far. Do more of these special attacks!
Could you provide some guidelines on creating them please? That would make it easier to create and balance them.

Behavior of WCS-PWS, WCS-SWS and WCS-GW have been amended to provide greater detail on the exact limitations of objectives. Akroma, I understand that you still disagree with their very existence, however, does this allay your concerns about their behavior parameters not being used?

Also, tsukumogami are definitely not extinct. Really, people love hand made stuff.
I never said they were. I merely pointed out the existence of some folklore, furthermore I see no need to heed it either if it is inconvenient.
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