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[4maskwolf]

Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, Flabort
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.

We need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.

If you have a case against me, state your case, or forever hold your peace.

[Persus13]

Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, Flabort
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.

We need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.

If you have a case against me, state your case, or forever hold your peace.

You overreacted to NQT's attack is the only evidence I have against you. Otherwise you seem pretty neutral.

[Jack A T]

Alright.  Looked back a bit through the spiral of madness that is this game so far.

Some thoughts on Imperial Guardsman: Incredibly twitchy, jumpy, flaily, LOUD, and hyperactive.  Hates being attacked for his actions.  Switches vote targets rapidly to whoever is attacking him.  Brushed off a request for reasons for his reads by telling me to look at my own posts.  Focused primarily on catching third parties, a behaviour often shown by scum that has trouble knowingly mislynching.  However, IG has given somewhat reasonable reasons, for someone of his apparent level of experience, for the focus on third parties, that can basically be summarized as wanting to avoid having any alive at what would normally be LYLO.  Seems to have memorized the MafiaScum and EpicMafia wikis, but lacks any clue as to how to apply the respective information and misinformation from them (good example: this misuse of Appeal to Authority.  Requesting that two experienced players give their thoughts on major events, even if their experience is mentioned, is not an appeal to authority.  It is just a request for their thoughts.).  Writes largely in buzzwords (I disagree with the MafiaScum wiki about this being a scumtell.  It's one of the strongest newbtells I've ever seen, but not all that meaningful when it comes to alignment).

Looking back through his previous games, this behaviour seems like his normal behaviour plus excessive sugar, caffeine, and anger.  Sadly, I lean slightly towards him being town.  He seems sincere in his abysmal third party hunting, and seems sincere in his reasons for doing that.

Imperial Guardsman: Why do you need flabort alive?  Is it the informational nature of his role, or something else?

As of the time of my post, Imperial Guardsman has dropped into the Red. In second place is Zombie Urist again, but he's still at the yellow, where everyone started.
It's clear he is scum, but wants 3rd Party victory far less than he wants a town victory.

Spoiler: Proof (click to show/hide)

If I think the lower post count person is more engaged in the game as a game of mafia and there was literally nothing else to go on, I'd vote the mass poster, but more generally scum are almost never the most frequent posters (last year, by my count, only one game had scum as the most frequent poster). What would you do in that situation?

NQT: I'd vote for the high-post count, low-content player.  Through playing many games, I've come to the conclusion that the primary factors leading to any given player's post count are their real life situation (see: Pandarsenic and midterms, NativeForeigner and his job, Tiruin and bad internet...) and their personality.  What times other players play is also a significant factor.

Flabort: Pointing at me, no matter how experienced I am, does not prove that Guardsman is scum.  Pointing at a theory argument of mine, especially without taking the time to apply it to the situation at hand beyond pointing at it, is not proof of Guardsman being scum.

Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.

Creating some sort of rule based somewhat on something I said is not proof of Guardsman being scum either.  Besides, I can't say I agree about him not giving content.  He's giving plenty of content.  Terrible content, and he means little of it, but content nonetheless.

The guy's managed to get an unprecedented -11 on your scumometer, and this is all you have on him?  Some generality that you haven't even backed up the applicability of in this situation?

Also, a quick question: why the semi-claim this early?

IF I MEANT AGGRESSIVE I WOULD HAVE SAID AGGRESSIVE

You said aggressive in the post I linked above.

zombie urist: Guardsman said aggressive about his non-me attackers.  He said "murderous" about me.

[flabort]

It's not all that I have on him, however, I'd have to go over my notes and cross-reference them in order to form a concise thought.
And he's slowly turning that rating around now.

As for why a claim this early:
Because it's that weak, I was under accusation, and also partly for reaction testing.

[notquitethere]

Wolf

By scumbuddy do you mean me or Flabort (your current vote target).

I meant you, but neither would be particularly coherent reasons to vote. What do you think about ZU's play (even accounting for the fact he's pfp right now)?


Jiokuy

The grounds against wolf are a bit weak in my opinion.
But, I do agree that while an active day one may not be as useful as later days, but it is still a source of useful information.

Uh huh, and what's the most useful information you've found so far? Now IG is the prime lynch candidate, do you think that's a stronger case?


Imperial Guardsman

and you are trying to hide it under the guise of a sort of breadcrumb attack?

What does this even mean?

ATTENTION EVERYONE, I HAVE FOUND OUR FIRST THIRD! Unvote 4maskwolf, Flabort.

Town's wincon is to defeat scum, not lynch all third parties. By focusing on 3rd parties you're making it look like you don't really care about achieving the town wincon in the most direct way.

@IG I said I have an information role. Does that make me a cop? An oracle? A sage? It could be nearly anything, it's not a claim.
How does me part-claiming doom both of us? I understand it might make me a scum target that is easily negated by a doc; it doesn't make you a target. My infodump makes you a target, and allows you to correct your actions and improve.

Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.

You need him alive... but he's a third party that you're trying to lynch? Make up your mind please!

We need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.

But you like your vote on him?

ZU

Why are you saying this like it was a sure thing? Also "everyone else" is kindof strange considering you're asking half the players.

It wasn't a sure thing at all, but at the time I posted he was lynch-lead (and would have been more so if I hadn't voted Flabort) and so if no one had done anything else at that time he would have died and I wanted people's opinions on this. By 'everyone else' I only meant to indicate why I wasn't asking the other people the same question. If someone is lynched, every player is responsible for their actions that allowed it to happen. I don't want anyone to just coast through.

Where is Tiruin, as it happens?

Isn't it too early to chase lurkers?

You also never responded to this.

Sorry, I meant to say: yeah it was a bit early. I was getting a bit too enthusiastic. Still looking forward to her posting some actual content. I didn't see where you explained why you're voting me?


Flabort

4mask wolf is no longer in the yellow. That said, he's not in the red, orange, or full green, either; he's in the light green, so I trust him right now. I don't want him to be lynched day 1. Maybe I'll change my mind on day 2 or 3, but I trust him right now.

I take it you're using your numbered colour-coded spreadsheet method to determine aggregate scumminess? Have you refined your criteria since the time you were scum? Only, it didn't seem to be very effective at actually picking out scum.


Jack

Sadly, I lean slightly towards him being town.  He seems sincere in his abysmal third party hunting, and seems sincere in his reasons for doing that.

Curious. So who do you think is a better lynch candidate at this stage?


Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?

[Jim Groovester]

Okay, I'm here. It's 3 AM Thursday morning and I'm too exhausted to do anything.

I'll look at this game tomorrow.

[Ottofar]

Jack

Jack

Ottofar: I remember you.  Still lurky?

I try not to.

Ottofar: Good.  As a townie, which two players here would you most want on the same side as you?  As a cultist?

As town, Jim and maybe ToonyMan, they're pretty reliable in their scumhunting. As cult, Toaster, he has a pretty good scum game, and perhaps Jiokuy, since I don't really know him, but he seems competent enough.


4maskwolf

Ottofar: Watch yourself, bud... 

I read the last page after replying to Toaster, so I didn't read your post until after NQT had posted, and while the vote was similar to his, it was in no other way related to it.

Anyway, you follow the votes up by answering Toaster's question about scumminess thusly:

Okay, for the second question, how about this:

Wolf
-snip-
Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?

This bullshit here.  NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway.  On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.

By attacking the person who laid the first vote on yourself. It, by itself isn't too bad, but then, in your next post you FoS me, the second person voting you, and quickly follow up with a vote:

Ottofar: Watch yourself, bud... 

IG, flailing, jumpiness, 3rd party hunting. I'm thinking third party here.

[Jiokuy]

I was having trouble pinning IG. On one hand his erratic behavior is in character for him. (At least from what I know of his experiences with baystation13, and the one game we shared a year ago) his insistence on hunting third parties was strange.

 I'm still inclined to believe he is a misguided towny (I really hope he doesn't flip mafia, would look really bad.) Still I feel we should use our remaining time questioning other members, and lynching IG only as a default. In particular, although I may be wrong, I believe we have a few lurkers?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I will be back home in 12 hours, expect a much longer post then

[Jiokuy]

What I meant with my last post was, there is a high probability IG is a third party. I doubt he is a cult leader, but he might be a serial killer. Just because we have a reasonable lynch does not mean we should give up the hunt. I feel we have spent too much time on IG already, and likely other scum are slipping through the cracks.

[Toaster]

IG:  In regards to your post here, I note two issues.  One, the Devil is not a SK.  Two, the Necromancer's raise is really not that obvious to a sexton.  They see the grave as disturbed, but not vacant.  As I recall, it's pretty much indistinguishable from a warlock visit.

Also, D1 attacks don't have to be random.

Ugh, in-quote responses.

How is that lazy play?  Because you're not really hunting scum if you're just going through the motions of participating.  You're not going to catch anything D1 (or later days, really) with that method.

Jack seems like the guy who will act inno and seem inno all game and then something turns around, makes him a baddie, and fucks us, or he was bad all along. 4mask seems bluh. There is something off with him. I will be watching him.

...what?

And, there is a difference in play style between a normal maf team, a cultafia, and a pseudo cult team.

I'll give you the cult/mafia difference, but what's the difference between a team called "mafia" and a team called "cult" that follow the same rules?

Also, do you agree or disagree that someone who demonizes third parties and attempts to drive attention their way is scum?

... any reasons for these reads?

Look at their posts.

Nope!  Wrong.  The burden of proof is on you.  This crosses the line from lazy to poor play.

Nobody knows ANYTHING D1 and this is the time to ask questions, scan posts and playstyle, and think. The power roles will help us day 2, and give us some basis and some alibi before we start the debate again.

This is all sorts of wrong.  The scum team knows who their partners are.  Any third parties know they aren't town.  Waiting for the night roles to do everything for us leads to town loss.

You might find this game educational.  There was a D1 massclaim, and plans were concocted for the night to suss out the scum.  Town lost in the end.

Maf WILL kill their only lead and I need you alive.

Now this is interesting.  First, no, you can't always predict what the scum team will do; you don't know what they've picked up on, or how likely they gauge a claim like Flabort's will draw protection.

Second... you need him alive?  What, are you his Guardian Angel?

Spoiler: From Super 4 (click to show/hide)

lordnincompoop (other)
    You are a Guardian Angel, sent to earth to protect Pandarsenic. Your one and only goal is to ensure that he lives to see the end of this nightmare. The heavens have plans for him in the future.
    Each night you may choose to use a protection charm on your ward. You may choose from the following: Protection from Night Kills, Protection from Conversion, Protection from Investigation, Protection from Judgement (the next day your ward will require 1 more vote to lynch than usual)

NQT:

Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, Flabort
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.

I think it's awfully damn early to be calling it this soon.  Remember what I said to you earlier?

Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?

This is sort of doing the same thing, though it's not as early in the day.  As for your answer.... eh, sort of.  I'm honestly not sure what his alignment at this point, but he's what I call a jammer.  His presence is polarizing the game, and causing a serious distraction to the rest of the scum hunting.  The best cure for a jammer is a vigilante, but you can't guarantee the presence of one.  The real problem is that he's an easy vote, and scum love easy votes.


Persus:

I thought victims of a flavor Cult disappeared?

I checked back and it looks like you're correct.  Super6 doesn't count because the flavor never revealed bodies, but Super2 the bodies did just disappear.


Zombie Urist:

its too early to decide.
nqt

Look, I know your posts are always terse.  I even see and agree with your point.

But you can do better than that.  Even your follow up doesn't do enough.


Jiokuy:  PPE:  I'll ask you the same thing; why IG for third party?

I'm still inclined to believe he is a misguided towny (I really hope he doesn't flip mafia, would look really bad.) Still I feel we should use our remaining time questioning other members, and lynching IG only as a default. In particular, although I may be wrong, I believe we have a few lurkers?

Bad for whom?

Lord Toaster, Toonyman: As two of the most experienced players, and since this "war" is coming to a close, care to share your reads of Wolf and Guardsman.

(Don't buddy me)

IG is very hard to read.  Reading him is like trying to tune a piano by ear with a vuvuzela chorus in the background.  His bullheaded stubbornness and pullover of ideas from KotM that don't actually translate makes his actual alignment tough to discern.  Since your post, though, he's gone from unclear to incomprehensible to insane.
4mask gave IG a fair shake before voting him for his antics.  He didn't take the easy vote right away- that's a bit of a point in his favor.  Overall, very slight town lean,  but there's one thing that troubles me a bit...


4mask:

Imperial, Tiruin, Zombie Urist, Jiokuy, Jim, Flabort
Everyone else has weighed in: what do you think of Wolf being lynched today? Are there good grounds or is it weak? Let's hear it.

We need a role flip, I dont mind, but I dont like that flabort vote.

If you have a case against me, state your case, or forever hold your peace.

Toony: can you reiterate the points behind your vote on me, por favor?

Why so much concern over the votes on you?

If you find it suspicious, then use your vote.  The lynch is the weapon of the town.

Lazy isn't always scummy.  Sure, scum be lazy to coast through and avoid dropping tells, but town does it too.  As of this post, I'm unconvinced either way.


Flabort:  Your proof in this post; did you quote the wrong thing or something?  It doesn't follow.

Jack:
Toaster was the first to start leaning town, because he's been quite helpful in conversation; however, he hasn't been posting much. So he's still not in the full green.
Next came NQT. Not entirely helpful as a whole, but logical and sound.

Being helpful does not mean being townie.  Anyone can go and gather up information that's not actually relevant to the current game; helpful, sure, but it doesn't find scum.


Ottofar:

IG, flailing, jumpiness, 3rd party hunting. I'm thinking third party here.

That's an interesting conclusion.  How do you get third party out of that?


Tiruin:  My current read for you is "Wait, Tiruin is playing?"


So hey NotQuiteThere, why are you always so interested in getting the current lynch target driven?

[4maskwolf]

unvote, I actually agree with Ottofar's point about IG being third party.  I've played with him as scum and he was cool as a cucumber.  I'm not sure what's up with him this game, but his behavior is in line with the overcompensation that sometimes comes with being a third-party.  As such, we need to find actual scum and lynch him later, if necessary.

Toony: can you reiterate the points behind your vote on me, por favor?

Why so much concern over the votes on you?

If you find it suspicious, then use your vote.  The lynch is the weapon of the town.

Lazy isn't always scummy.  Sure, scum be lazy to coast through and avoid dropping tells, but town does it too.  As of this post, I'm unconvinced either way.

I'm not concerned about the votes, but it's a part of my strategy to keep votes off of me whether I'm town or scum so that they can be used in a more effective manner.  If I'm town, I want those votes to be used on scum, and if I'm scum, I want them to be used on town.

Jack

Jack

Ottofar: I remember you.  Still lurky?

I try not to.

Ottofar: Good.  As a townie, which two players here would you most want on the same side as you?  As a cultist?

As town, Jim and maybe ToonyMan, they're pretty reliable in their scumhunting. As cult, Toaster, he has a pretty good scum game, and perhaps Jiokuy, since I don't really know him, but he seems competent enough.


4maskwolf

Ottofar: Watch yourself, bud... 

I read the last page after replying to Toaster, so I didn't read your post until after NQT had posted, and while the vote was similar to his, it was in no other way related to it.

Anyway, you follow the votes up by answering Toaster's question about scumminess thusly:

Okay, for the second question, how about this:

Wolf
-snip-
Well of course nothing's going to stand out if you don't press people. I'd like to see you talk with everyone so when you flip scum I can better root out your scum mates. Read the thread and use your imagination: what's the scummiest thing?

This bullshit here.  NQT knows damn well that I don't like Day one, but he tries to get me to talk anyway.  On top of that, he makes the assumption that I am scum, and it is a long leap from ignoring one question to being confirmed scum.

By attacking the person who laid the first vote on yourself. It, by itself isn't too bad, but then, in your next post you FoS me, the second person voting you, and quickly follow up with a vote:

This, I feel, needs a response.  Is it somehow bad that I call people out on inconsistencies, weak arguments, and possible scummy behavior just because they vote for me.  If I remember correctly, this is a game about finding the scum.  If those scum happen to be voting for me, then I will call them out on what they do.  Same as with anyone else.  I didn't vote/call out Tooneyman because nothing set off my alarm bells, and he voted for me.

Also, I checked the timestamps on the posts and I can believe you were in the middle of typing your post when NQT posted.  That's why I unvoted without waiting for a response.

[Persus13]

Notquitethere:

Jim, Tiruin, Ottofar, Persus13, ToonyMan, Toaster— by my count Imperial Guardsman is set to be lynched today now. Are you cool with that?

It seems like Imperial Guardsmen is always the D1 lynch, as his play style is very different and he always seems scummy, however, I was impressed by his Prince Mafia play recently, so his play here after I unvoted him was very surprising. I don't have much to say besides what Jack already said (his paragraph on Imperial took the words out of my mouth). I'd rather scumhunt elsewhere for the moment, but if there's no alternative candidate that I find more scummy, then I'd be willing to have Imperial lynched, especially as I agree that he's a possible third party.

Imperial:

The questions and votes seemed less inquisitive and more murderous.

You haven't seen any murderous votes yet. I'd say that will happen when Jim starts actually playing.

Also, you never answer my question to explain your post attacking 4maskwolf.

Jiokuy:

I'm still inclined to believe he is a misguided towny (I really hope he doesn't flip mafia, would look really bad.) Still I feel we should use our remaining time questioning other members, and lynching IG only as a default. In particular, although I may be wrong, I believe we have a few lurkers?

Do you mind further explaining the bolded part?
Also, Tiruin has had net/RL issues, and Jim said he wouldn't be able to play until today or so, so that's why they haven't posted anything big on content.

I doubt he is a cult leader, but he might be a serial killer.

Cult leaders are generally scum, not third party in Supernatural games. I highly recommend you read all the previous games to get a better understanding if you have not already.

Flabort:'

Persus: Yes, I have played with 3Ps before, but rarely have they ever actually been a major threat or player in the games I've played.
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.

IG: I am not a third. I am a town information role. A rather weak one, but a information role nonetheless.

Well, third parties are dangerous, although Imperial does seem to be overly concerned about them.
And so instead of citing actual content from IG to back up your reasons, you cite... a post from two more experienced players? That's definitely where I'd apply the Misuse of authority scumtell.
And lots of low content posts build up over time. It's also how someone plays, and if there's one thing I really dislike it is people trying to lynch someone based on playstyle.

Also, I'd like to echo NQT's concern about how accurate your scoring method is. How do you determine the score a post receives? DO you account for meta, or context? Have you tried doing the scoring method to a finished game and then compared the scores with flips?

Finally, why are you roleclaiming (albeit slightly) this early? There's no real point from a town point of view, as it doesn't really add anything to your argument while it makes you more likely to be NKed.

ZU: Who are you most suspicious of right now? Least suspicious of? Opinion on NQT, since last I checked you are voting him.

NQT: I want you to weigh in on your own question about Imperial and hear more thoughts and reads from you on people. You seem keen on asking other people what they think of lynching.

PPE: Toaster deals with a lot of the same stuff I did, ah well.

Toaster:

Flabort:  Your proof in this post; did you quote the wrong thing or something?  It doesn't follow.

I asked him the same question, and he said:
quote author=flabort link=topic=139118.msg5365521#msg5365521 date=1402526467]
Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.
[/quote]

PPE: Ugh, I'll read 4maskwolf later.

[Persus13]

EBWOP: Response to Toaster had minor formatting problem I felt needed fixing.

Toaster:

Flabort:  Your proof in this post; did you quote the wrong thing or something?  It doesn't follow.

I asked him the same question, and he said:

Yes, the proof leads to why IG is scum: Lynch the guy with lots and lots of low content posts.

[Jiokuy]

persus13 I consider that a fault of my poor editing. As a rule I feel there are two sides to any lynch. In the past I have defended a player only to get lynched in their place. I was referencing my fear that a poor defense on my part could result in my lynching. A myslynch could be very costly this game.

[notquitethere]

Toaster, One of my goals for today is that whoever ends up being lynched, every player knows that they are responsible for it. That means everyone has to back a case. I'm not sure IG is the best target yet, hence why I'm still chasing other people up, but I'm sure I'm going to have a vote on someone for a good reason by the end of the day. Getting everyone's insight on the most interesting things to happen during the day increases engagement and gives us all more to work with. Scum want to stay silent when town are getting lynched for bad reasons, and, though they don't want to be obvious about it, they want to prevent their scumbuddies being lynched. Asking everyone about the players up for lynching makes it certain that scum will have commented on the lynch.

Does that all make sense? I'm not saying 'hey everyone, let's lynch such and such', I'm saying 'such and such is looking like they might be lynched, and if they are then you are partly culpable for letting it happen so what are your reasons?'


Ottofar, you've been quite narrowly focused. What do you think of Persus13's play so far?


Jiokuy, I gather you're slow to commit to a vote. Who's it looking like you'll go for at this moment?


Wolf, I'd hardly say I was displaying "inconsistencies, weak arguments, and possible scummy behavior". I wanted you to contribute and engage with people. You say you want to find "actual scum", well, you do that by interacting with the people that might be actually scum.


Persus

NQT: I want you to weigh in on your own question about Imperial and hear more thoughts and reads from you on people. You seem keen on asking other people what they think of lynching.

Read my explanation to toaster above. Before the day ends I'm intending to reread the thread and give my full reads on all players. But here's how I see things so far:

Imperial is behaving irrationally. This doesn't mean he's necessarily scum but it does mean he's unhelpful to town.

Wolf was super defensive over being asked to do some work rather than just sit back. Now he seems to be saying he'd like to scum hunt, I'd like to see this. Does this make him scum? Well, that could just be his attitude. I'll need to reread.

Jim and Tiruin have yet to arrive due to real life but I'm worried about scum coasting due to inactivity, so I hope to hear more from them before the day ends.

Flabort I'd like to hear more from about his scoring stuff, as I know from experience it's easy for scum to hide behind a veneer of false objectivity. I've done it myself in the past.

Zombie Urist is mostly not around but seems to be weakly pursuing a complete non-case. I'm looking forward to his next response.

Everyone else has been fairly reasonable, I'd like to hear more of course, and I hope a reread will give me some fresh insight.