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[kaenneth]

HR knows even less about the job than you do probably.

Their job is to check all the legally required boxes like Adult US Citizen, not literally insane, on drugs, and do tax paperwork...

All recruiters do is keyword searches, Google could replace them worldwide in a week with a side project if they wanted to. (B Ark...)

You also get/need to be creative when writing your 'Achievements'

Example Achievement: "Correctly forecast the effect of a restructuring initiative of a 3000+ employee company."

[SalmonGod]

My work history:
1.  Part-time package handler at Fedex Express.  Not hard to get into, especially back in 2004.
2.  A couple years later, my brother's best friend knew a manager at a new Fedex Trade Networks office that was opening up nearby.  Lots of hiring.  Since I was already a Fedex employee, making the move was easy.
3.  After 7 years at Fedex Trade Networks, a co-worker that I was good friends with was recruited through Monster.com by another logistics/brokerage office just down the street.  It's a smaller company that has referral incentives in place, and takes those referrals pretty seriously.  So following him over there was pretty easy.

My experience is that social connections are the only guarantee, and beyond that it's mostly a matter of luck.  For any desirable position, it takes a world-class work history and reputation to get around that.  You can have a demonstrably good skill set and work history, but it doesn't matter until either someone on the inside helps you be noticed or a mid-level position needs filled right now, meaning they interview the first few candidates with decent credentials they're able to hunt down on their own instead of putting out a hiring call.

It seems to me like the vast majority of people "fall in" to their line of work by pure circumstance, much like I did, and never manage to escape.  Trying to break out sucks, and I honestly don't know anyone who's done it.  The only people I know who made it into a career of their deliberate choosing did so by steadfastly refusing to put themselves in permanent full-time work positions, staying in school, staying single/uncommitted, and living on student loans until they got the job they wanted.

Getting an interview also seems to be the hardest part.

Resume tips:
-In my case, for jobs #2 and #3, I literally just asked my friends if I could have copies of the resume that got them hired, and adapted those to myself.
-I always listed everything I had any knowledge of that might be relevant to the job, even if my knowledge of a subject wasn't too detailed, and tried to strike a balance between generalizations and details.
-I quantified myself by comparison to co-workers (without mentioning names, of course) and the impact I had on the workplace.  For example, both resumes for jobs #2 & 3 mentioned that when I had a day off at Express, three people had to be brought in to take my place (which was true).  For job #3, I noted that I summarized a stupid 50+ page training manual about how to process Lacey Act documentation down to 5 sentences, and the entire office of around 120 employees used that as reference.

Also, I still think you should look into customs brokerage.  It's not satisfying or glamorous work by any means, but it would be steady work that I think you would be good at.  It's legal in nature and all about knowing a ton of detailed rules and being organized.  And if you get a broker's license, which I don't think you'd find difficult, you're basically guaranteed a job.  They're highly valued.

[Truean]

Thank you all, and particularly thank you Salmon. I've tried applying to jobs like that, and hopefully I might manage to get myself into one somehow. I dunno. Here's hoping.

I've also tried a few of those executive recruiters:

My problems seem to be as follows (in simple sum):

1.) I have a non traditional experience. I am a valuable round peg, and I need to figure out how to get into those square holes (good jobs).

Example: There's a posting for a regional distribution manager. It pays high five to low six figures and is a 50 hour week at most (this is a lighter load for me). They want somebody who has managed a distribution network or warehouse for 5 years. I have not BUT I have been business and legal counsel for a few businesses with distribution networks and inventory (a warehouse company, propane distributor, manufacturing concerns (metal fabrication, custom machining, Aluminum, etc), as well as a few sales firms, tow yards/auto sales and repairs). The best part? I dealt with all these things when there was a major problem! It's easy to go through day to day when nothing is wrong, but try doing it when shit is hitting the fan and either the government or somebody else is coming in to sue or something.

I just need to somehow manage the above to equate with "5 years of managing a distribution network.... One network? Nopes. Several when shit hit the fan? Yes.

2.) Difficulty showing results.

It's that damn attorney client privilege stuff making my life difficult again. I can't tell you I represented Joe Blow, because that would imply that Mr. Blow is in some kinda trouble (criminal, tax, divorce, etc etc). Same goes with a LOT of the companies that I represented, and that's assuming they're still around. Again, the stuff I was in charge of, went fairly well considering, but for example, the IRS wants me to testify against one of my former clients and thaaat a.) is more prevalent than you think, because I'm called in when shit hits the fan, and b.) I warned him and didn't participate in the wrongdoing which is why my butt is covered.

______________________________

What's really funny is that I have a couple of executive recruiters saying they're impressed with me, but that these are the problems I have to get around. They are perhaps able to be worked around, but will take some doing.

[Retropunch]

1.) I have a non traditional experience. I am a valuable round peg, and I need to figure out how to get into those square holes (good jobs).

2.) Difficulty showing results.

1) Non-traditional experience sounds flaky - don't say that! When I think of Non-traditional experience I imagine someone saying that they haven't worked in the shipyard construction management, but they did have non-traditional experience running a ukulele focussed commune in the desert. it's like when people say they have been to 'the university of life'. Nope.

A lot of this comes down to people equating experience to 'time sat at a desk', and it's a problem that everyone is faced with and it's bullshit. You could probably have gotten that job if you had been just sat on your ass in some middle-of-nowhere chicken grease distributor warehouse for 8 years, but not if you've had valuable experience for 3. The only way around this is to go directly to the top. If you're going for such a high level posting, say you want to come in and show them that you are the right choice.

This is tricky if it's through a recruitment agency as they normally hold back the name of the client, but you can try to get them to sell you better. A friend of mine (at quite a high level on the career ladder) managed to get Reed to set up a proper sit down meeting with a job he was well suited for after they hadn't managed to set him up with anything for a few months. At first they blathered on about 'we just give you the tools to help yourself' but eventually he managed to put the screws to them and make them sort something out. It worked out very well, as it was almost like the recruiters recommendation and he was able to demonstrate that whilst he didn't have some parts, he more than made up for it in others.   

2)Whilst you can't show exact names for confidentiality reasons, you can talk about what you've done whilst changing the specifics (just names and places). I have the exact same problem, and normally manage to get around it by talking about exactly what I did without mentioning any names/specifics. You can say 'my client was charged with x, and I took steps y and z, and resolving his problems with n using my skills in r' (fill letters with legal jargon).
Even the most ridiculous of employers must respect privilege (and appreciate you more for being so strict about confidence!) and I can't believe that anyone is reading through it and saying 'If they had told me who, I'd have given them the job!' - sure it might lack the gravity of saying 'I stopped IBM going under' but it's all about your skills, the experience you've gained, and how you succeeded.

To end on a high note - recruiters always say they're impressed with you - that's their job.

[gimlet]

Also you can use general descriptors instead of company/personal names - "a Fortune 10 computer manufacturer", (IBM, Dell or Apple),  "a Forbes Global20 auto manufacturer" (VW or Toyota), "a prominent politician charged with sexual misconduct"  (too many to list), etc...

[Retropunch]

Also you can use general descriptors instead of company/personal names - "a Fortune 10 computer manufacturer", (IBM, Dell or Apple),  "a Forbes Global20 auto manufacturer" (VW or Toyota), "a prominent politician charged with sexual misconduct"  (too many to list), etc...

Second that, there's quite a few ways to creatively get across exactly what sort of company you're talking about without giving it away.

[alamoes]

Ah its that thing about the world I truly dislike more than anything out there.  It drives unemployment and further divides those who are normal, and those who have a non-traditional.  Like me.  I consider myself to have a non-traditional work experience, and to be able to supply non-traditional work.  Good thing I'm still in school, I don't have to face the realities for a few more years. 

I would say that you should probably state that you have experience dealing with failure beyond your control. 

[gimlet]

For the "non-traditional" experience/jobs, I think you're generally going to have to make contact with the organization at a higher level - impress a manager or officer.  Because in most orgs you'll NEVER get through HR by sending in resumes, generally all they do is filter out by keywords and rigid rules.  So network like crazy, and keep track of where coworkers/bosses move to, and go out of your way to keep in touch.

If you want to make passing those hurdles easier, find a way to at least technically be able to put those keywords on your resume - ie if you don't have an undergrad degree, find SOME way to get one - least painful would be a "distance learning" degree from a school that has brick & mortar classrooms too - I remember University of Massachusetts at Amherst used to have one, dunno now.  After you have a few years of actual experience nobody generally cares where the degree is from or even what it was in, but there's still some stigma attached to obviously "online-only" schools like U of Phoenix.  Between CLEP tests, hopefully being able to "test out" of classes, and taking the rest as online courses, it should be possible to knock out a degree without TOOO much expense or time.

For tech buzzwords, maybe work on an open-source project using that tech.  Heck, blog about it and become an "expert", maybe they'll come to you

[3man75]

For the "non-traditional" experience/jobs, I think you're generally going to have to make contact with the organization at a higher level - impress a manager or officer.  Because in most orgs you'll NEVER get through HR by sending in resumes, generally all they do is filter out by keywords and rigid rules.  So network like crazy, and keep track of where coworkers/bosses move to, and go out of your way to keep in touch.

If you want to make passing those hurdles easier, find a way to at least technically be able to put those keywords on your resume - ie if you don't have an undergrad degree, find SOME way to get one - least painful would be a "distance learning" degree from a school that has brick & mortar classrooms too - I remember University of Massachusetts at Amherst used to have one, dunno now.  After you have a few years of actual experience nobody generally cares where the degree is from or even what it was in, but there's still some stigma attached to obviously "online-only" schools like U of Phoenix.  Between CLEP tests, hopefully being able to "test out" of classes, and taking the rest as online courses, it should be possible to knock out a degree without TOOO much expense or time.

For tech buzzwords, maybe work on an open-source project using that tech.  Heck, blog about it and become an "expert", maybe they'll come to you

Wait gimlet, are you saying that with enough XP (by how much exactly?) a degree doesn't matter anymore? I mean i'm doing college now and to me this is...wow.

Ya here's a good question, do degree's get you though most HR paper stopping departments?

[SalmonGod]

I think experience completely trumps a degree.  A degree helps you gain entry when you have no experience, but how necessary it is for that depends heavily on the field.  For the majority, it doesn't amount to much more than proof of ability to be responsible, and if you can get any serious work experience without a degree, then you're already over that hump.  The exceptions would be fields that require a high level of education to even get started, like medicine and hard science.  While I'm sure my college experience contributed to many aspects of my personal development that have helped me in my professional life, the degree itself has done absolutely nothing for me at all.

I think this is mostly because higher education has become too much of a profit-driven industry.  Standards have lowered to allow for more customers, and degrees have become too common to have the value they used to.  So if you go to school, do so for your personal development.  Absolutely do not do it for that piece of paper alone.

[Retropunch]

I strongly disagree that experience always trumps a degree or that with experience a degree isn't necessary.

Sadly, mostly this is because it's just expected - pretty much every 'good' job requires one and there's no way around it. I've helped do recruitment in the past and anyone without a degree immediately went in the bin. We didn't even look at their experience, as a degree was required and I know that's the case with most other places I've worked in. Granted, there are jobs that don't, and if you have a huge amount of experience (like 20+ years/founded a hugely successful company) it won't matter, but in most cases it just does.

Secondly, I sort of feel sorry (not in a patronizing way) for people that say their degree hasn't helped them. My degree (in a non-science subject) has helped me immensely, and continues to do so even after tons of actual work experience. Part of this is because my work is something directly related to my degree, and also because I went on to get a Masters. The Masters really sort of 'unlocked' (urgh marketing speech) my BA, as it basically showed how to use the theoretical-based BA in a practical way. I'm not saying that a Masters is for everyone, but for me it really helped, and it also shows employers that I was really serious about the subject rather than just getting through any old degree.
I still use a lot of the skills and methodology I learnt, and I was grilled about my degree at the last job interview I went for, even after a few other (good) jobs in between.

I was lucky with getting good courses, and I know many people that didn't and felt their degree was just a piece of paper/shows basic skills. I feel that those people were either unlucky with their education, did a degree with no real career path (philosophy I'm looking at you), or expected that getting a degree would be an instant job ticket like it used to be 20-30 years ago.

[gimlet]

Right, remember what I said was "After you have a few years of actual experience nobody generally cares where the degree is from or even what it was in" - to pass HR in large or even medium sized companies you still need to let them click that "has degree" box, but it matters much less whether it's from MIT or Oral Roberts University, or whether it's in the exact field they're looking for or something even quite a bit away.  As long as you have (or are able to credibly claim to have) solid, relevant experience.  As Retro said, this can vary - some places still value it, but in my experience, especially for tech degrees like computer science, after 5 years of experience it's minimal and after 10 years only HR and fellow alumni of your actual school will likely even care.

Because remember, an undergrad degree isn't some magic wand of job-getting, it's evidence that you have learned the fundamentals of your field and tools and techniques to continue learning about it.  After 5 or 10 years of varied work in your field, one would presume that any question of your grasp of the fundamentals is moot, and you have demonstrated the ability to learn and apply new techniques in depth plus work with others, which trumps whatever probably-obsolescent stuff was in your undergrad courses 10+ years ago. (Of course not universally true - I've known real bozos with 15 years of work history, but the generalization still uhh, generally holds).  HR isn't designed to be logical though - how many times do we see them list as absolute requirements "5+ years experience in technology that was only released 1 year ago" :p

With small companies you *can* possibly talk your way around not even having a degree at all, depending on the actual job - they're often flexible enough to try to evaluate your actual skills and potential instead of forcing everyone through the strait-jacket checklistery of HR.  In any sized org, it really helps if you have actual experience in whatever hot, high-in-demand buzzwords they are looking for that there is currently a desperate shortage of.

And haha Retro, it was the exact opposite for me - my undergrad was generally more practical (on top of learning the theoretical underpinnings) and the masters level courses I took were way more abstract and theoretical.  It was math/computer science - they were probably more prep for the PhD track I think.

[3man75]

Interesting.

By the way is it a bad idea to "switch" majors when you finish your undergrad degree? For example one of my teachers (he's like in his 50's or 60's now) has a degree in economics but a PH.D in Law. Others say it's not a good idea to do those things because it'll confuse Human Resources.

Thoughts?

[SalmonGod]

Seems to me like you guys are just reinforcing that it's heavily based on the field in question. 

I got a degree in digital media, only to find that getting a job in that field is 100% based on networking and portfolio.  If you don't have a kick-ass portfolio, your degree doesn't matter.  If you do have a kick-ass portfolio, your degree doesn't matter.  If you don't have some connections, nobody's going to look at your portfolio.  From what I've heard, it's like that with pretty much any type of media work.  I have professional writer friends who have related basically the same thing.  I would have been better off investing that time and money into making personal projects and hanging out on artist forums.

Or there's fields like mine (customs brokerage/logistics) that have a very high ceiling of knowledge and skill.  But not a single person I've worked with actually studied the work in a school setting, and many don't have degrees.  Almost everyone has the same story.  They never meant to make it their career, but they landed an entry-level position that offered training, then followed the opportunities their work experience opened up for them.

Really... that's the story with almost everyone I've ever known.  Worked some entry-level position while getting their degree, and then after getting the degree, found that it was easier to advance in what they were already doing based purely on their work experience than to get a job related to that degree.  Took advantage of opportunities within this incidental field that their degree didn't do anything to create for them, until finally giving up on doing what they intended because they're too invested and burdened with adulthood to change paths.

The only exceptions I've personally seen are in things like medicine, science, law, engineering, etc.  Stuff that it would be impossible to even get started doing without a lot of education first.

[Retropunch]

Interesting.

By the way is it a bad idea to "switch" majors when you finish your undergrad degree? For example one of my teachers (he's like in his 50's or 60's now) has a degree in economics but a PH.D in Law. Others say it's not a good idea to do those things because it'll confuse Human Resources.

Thoughts?

A switch is 100% ok, as long as it's not too weird. If it follows a 'path' of some sort, then that's fine, and can even be extremely helpful! Like lets say you did economics and then a PHD in Law, you'd be ideal for a job in business/financial law, more so than someone that just did law!

Just make sure it's something a bit sensible, I've had friends that did a BA in biology and then an MA in digital graphics (doing hard sciences lets you do literally anything it seems).