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[Meph]

I dont know if people would like elves to be hostiles by default.

And yes, its 4 teams max. I cant just invent new ones.

And cavern creatures can have a set depth. Layer-linked entities on the other hand can not.

[IndigoFenix]

I was playing around with some ideas for different teams and their races.  I think it would be interesting to have each team have a race that fills a particular role.
Since I have spent too much time on TV Tropes, I naturally thought of the 'five races' as a starting point and went from there.

	Civilized	Warmongers	Wild	Evil	Outsiders (enemies with everyone, not really a team)
Standard	Humans	Orcs	Gnolls	?	?
Strong	Dwarves	Centaurs	Ogres	Jotun	Automatons
Noble	Elves	Drow	Beastfolk	Warlocks	Shades
Magical	Seelie	Unseelie	Nymphs	Succubi	Eldritch Horrors
Cute	Gnomes	Goblins	Kobolds	Imps	Insects

Of course, DF works better with four races (one per season), and some of these groups aren't even complete.  Eh, just use it as brainstorming.
As for putting centaurs in with the warmongers, it's because originally centaurs were seen as brutish, violent, uncultured monsters best known for kidnapping people (and raping them with their horse parts - _{yes, Umbridge}).  The 'noble, wise centaur' image is based on Chiron, a single centaur who was kind of an outcast for being completely un-centaurlike.

[Meph]

I was more going for a mongolian-horde centauren type, but the creature file itself has a GOOD on it... even in vanilla DF I think.

Eldritch Horros are kinda FBs, no? Of course more Lovecraft is always good...

Seelie/Unseelie would be very complex to write I think.

Kobolds dont work, because of their skulking tag, they cant be in any group. But yeah, its possible to make 5 groups, with the fifth one being outsider/always hostile. I am not quite sure if I will ever manage to get Warlocks to trade, because of their weird mephit spawning and opposed to life tags. I could very well say "warlocks, succubi, automatons and frost giants" are not a team, but hostile to everyone. This would leave one team completely free.

If there are 5 teams, with 5 races each, 25 civs... thats difficult to balance in worldgen, and each player civ would have 4 allies, and 21 (!) races that ambush, steal, kidnap and siege from them. Plus the towers, plus the skulking races, plus the cavern races. I already think that 4 races is a lot, but it fits the seasons so nicely. Of cource could also be made into 3 per group... having Winter with no caravans, or 2 caravans of the same civ.

So many options. ^^

[IndigoFenix]

Actually, the skulking tag doesn't prevent alliances at all.  The shy guys in the Mushroom Kingdom mod are playable skulking item thieves who are allies with two other civs, one was skulking and the other wasn't.  I think the only effect of the skulking tag is that they will attack more based on how often they steal or snatch, as opposed to regular enemies that will attack more based on how much your fort progresses.  (This is why skulkers must be either thieves or snatchers).  I'm not sure where you heard that skulkers can't have allies, but it isn't the case.  Utterances does prevent alliances though.

[Meph]

They dont send caravans. Yes, they can be allies and they wont attack other people in their team, and other team members might send them caravans, but they themselves do not trade with other races.

I cant get a kobold caravan to spawn for example, using force event.

I can make some more tests though.

[IndigoFenix]

There were definitely caravans coming from both their own civ and their skulking allies.  Another race (babysnatchers) also had skulking allies who would send regular caravans as well.

There may be something else preventing caravans in the case of kobolds, but it isn't SKULKING.

[Meph]

Mh... I will have to test this. If it works, I will get rid of the SKULKING section all together, and merge them into the others. Shades to evil, Kobolds either to orc/goblin or the nature/wild civs. Nightcreatures could go into the caverns.

EDIT: My skulking humans just send a caravan.  So I do have to rethink a few things.
EDIT2: Yep, they all send caravans, and I can force kobold caravans. Mh. I remember that this did not work when I first tried it, but thats long ago.

Team skulking got served. I have to remove it.

EDIT3: Weird. Even the wiki still has it:

SKULKING       This makes the severity of attacks depend on the extent of item/baby thievery rather than the passage of time. Makes trade impossible with the related civilization.

Seems it was the case, but got changed somewhere in the 0.3x updates?

[snusnumrik]

Some proposed to make good necromancers, let me expand this idea inserting angels. Tolkien kind of Angels.

During Myth age some God might randomly decide to send one of his angels to the Earth. Those angels would appear as wizards wth names such as -Ulric the [RANDOM_COLOR]-.
Their stats are slighlty higher then normal humans and they have all the useful traits of necromancers: unaging, no need for food/sleep, skills don't rust ecc.
But what about their magic power?
Instead of necomancy give them ability to convince people. If  humanoids creatures (or good biome monsters) are in wizard's line of sight (-about 15 tiles- and the creature must be able to hear and see)  the wizard will ( 50% ) convince the creature (instantly turning him wizard's companion).
Once they have 50 followers they start buidling a tower.


As necromancers they will siege you. When they do they enter your map with 8 friendly creatures randomly chosen (or with highest weapon skills, for more FUN) from inhabitants of the tower.

This doesn't seems like a big force, but with your Dwarfes turning sides during the battle, it can get really FUN if you got distracted.



Otherwise I really like the Ents idea.

[Dirst]

Some proposed to make good necromancers, let me expand this idea inserting angels. Tolkien kind of Angels.

Meph sketched out a similar idea for a Prophet a couple pages back.  Hopefully in the next version towers can be erected based on more than just raising X dead (ideally, something at least as flexible as siege triggers).

[Tabithda]

EDIT3: Weird. Even the wiki still has it:

SKULKING       This makes the severity of attacks depend on the extent of item/baby thievery rather than the passage of time. Makes trade impossible with the related civilization.

Seems it was the case, but got changed somewhere in the 0.3x updates?

Speaking as someone who has been moding in custom civs since 40d, it has been my experience that that has probably never been the case.  As far as I can tell, there are only three things that will prevent a civ from trading with other civs-

removing the trade related PROGRESS_TRIGGER tokens from the civ(though if you play as a fort belonging to such a civ they will send caravans to you anyway)
removing the civ creature's ability to speak(though again, if you play as a fort belonging to such a civ they will send caravans to you anyway)
removing the COMMON_DOMESTIC_PET token(or just the COMMON_DOMESTIC_PULL and COMMON_DOMESTIC_PACK tokens), which will prevent the civ from trading with -anyone- at all.

It might also be possible to prevent a civ from trading if they have absolutely nothing to trade at all, though as far as I am aware no-one has ever tested that.

[Dunamisdeos]

What about an intelligent undead race for Standard -> Evil?

[Meph]

You mean like the Warlocks?

[Dunamisdeos]

I assumed warlocks were something else. I mean like a race of zombies and the like, with maybe some kind of overlord class? Something like that.

Looks like these warlocks are meant to create mephits? Are they also necromancers?

[Meph]

Warlocks are mostly necromancers. Its a few evil mage dudes in a tower full of ghouls and skeletons, with opposed to life creatures (evil biomes, towers, normal necromancers) being friendly to them.

[Dunamisdeos]

Oh, well that's right about exactly what I meant then. Hmmmmmm.

What about a Teifling civ? You could have it made up of various types of half human/elf/dwarf/gnome and half demon creatures.