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[nenjin]

Kinda regret reading your spoilers. They confirm for me some of the stuff I was worried about.

Duncan Idaho

Seeing Jason Mamoa run around and kick ass in the trailers was both not what I was looking for and confirmation of the "dumb action" stuff that was all over the trailer.

Liet Kynes

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This was one of the other ones that also bugged me and gave me strong political vibes off the movie. Recasting a male character as female is just what studios do these days, and that's "fine." But making her supreme leader of the Fremen? Uh....that was not what Liet Kynes was in the books. At all. That kind of pisses me off. Recast the gender of a character? Fine. Completely change the story so you can put a woman who wasn't even a character at the top of the food chain, simply because it's 2021? Fuck that noise. It's like the Last Jedi all over again. If someone is going to be in charge and be thrown on a sacrificial altar, by god, it's gonna be a woman!

Others are kinda disputing this take but having not seen it yet, I can't really have an informed opinion.

Desire to see the movie is tanking though.

[Starver]

Sounds like I need to grab the book (tonight)... My recently refreshed memories of the Shadout are exactly as you say this film has her, not being a big enough part except...

Spoiler: (minor) (click to show/hide)

as an in-universe Miss Exposition to clue the mother in on local lore/prophecy, and then after the year of unexceptional but loyal service gasping her last in barely half a clue as to Whodunnit

...that, when I first read the book, I wondered why it couldn't have been the Coded Pot-Plant to do the first half. Yes, there's The Object to pass on (there were other ways to do that, and especially as it's barely even a McGuffin in the first half of the book), but the presumed reporting back to the Fremen of how special the new landlords may be could have been done via that dinner-party (with another yet-to-be-revealed major figure who still ends up being Game Of Thronesed out of the plot later, after fulfilling further thread-linking purposes).

The gender thing... It's an androcentric plot, as written. Much of its time.. The mother's sisterhood is respected/feared, but individuals at her level are at the whim of their consorts' opinions (within the scope their trained influences upon them allows, but she herself seems to have been content to use the lightest of light touches upon someone who is conveyed as a decent man, probably even without such possible feminine wiles). The most galactically recognised public female figure of importance (Lady Not-Appearing-Until-The-Next-Film?) is to be cruelly sidelined by the hero!. The Reverend Mother, the Shadout, the future heroine-consort and the Child(-Also-Not-Appearing-In-This-Film...) are all special authorities or (come to be) respected within the narrow scopes of their own communes/communities (with or without misogynistic overtones, which special-status balances).

Actually, it's not far from the current standards, except where specially countered (I can't quite work out how they'd do Ann Leckie's Ancillary trilogy, in film, without spoiling the beautifully preserved ambiguity of that work's characterisations). A single gender-flip from the source material is trivial, on occasions it is attempted.

(c.f. The Watch mini-series, which gender-/age-/race-/profession-/ability-/attitude-flipped a number of 'named characters' in pointed ways that annoyed even progressively-minded Pratchett fans - because it made for a complety different far-end-of-the-probability-curve universe from the books and established mythos... Even if it's a Multiverse (and Trousers Of Time) thing, as implied, this is a sub-multiverse different from the book-type sub-multiverse (mostly shared with the prior TV animations/mini-serieses) suggesting that there's a meta-multiverse level one further level out if you wish to creat a Grand Unified Theory of the whole discverse..)


...I'm typing too much. So, Lasguns to finish (for now). A shortened point I was going to make was that I took the book-reason for their uselessness (or, rather, they became a MAD-solution) was of a Rock/Paper/Scissors nature, coming up with a reason why they should not be as useful as they should be in any other similarly-teched creation. Similarly, artilliary is supposed to he useless, but because (spoiler) it's actually useful... After a fashion. Writer's choice to have done it that way. The faithfulness of it being re-written in this movie I accept the views of those who have seen it, for now. (But there are other ways to RPS lasers out of primacy, with personal shields if necessary, that might have been used.)


End post. Maybe more later...

[1freeman]

Spoiler: Further points about the Shadout Mapes (click to show/hide)

As far as Mapes goes, the things I described are indeed in the book (and I enjoyed the scene in the moment). but my point was that it seemed superfluous to the plot of the movie as it was presented. In my mind, one of the most important functions that Mapes fulfills in the other adaptations and the novel, is to warn about the traitor in the Atreides midst. but since this movie doesn't have that subplot (No accusations of Jessica being a traitor, no mention of traitors at all by either side till Yueh actually betrays the Atreides) she doesn't really serve much of a narrative purpose for this movie.

While the scene with the crysknife is shown very faithfully, other than the presence of a guard (Unworthy outsider, and Mapes doesn't even mention it) in the room, and Mapes sheathing the blade without drawing blood, Jessica doesn't even call her out for it like she does in the novel.

The prophesy angle is already covered by the Reverend Mother mentioning the planted prophesy (one of if not my absolute favorite concept from the book), and the locals calling out about the 'lisan al gaib'. The Fremen have a conversation all about whether Paul actually is the chosen one while they are sitting around sharing a drink.

[nenjin]

Not surprised the krysknife didn't really pan out into anything. It was a side detail in the book. Meaningful, but, it probably demanded more explanation than the script writers were willing to invest in.

[Starver]

[unspoilered]the things I described are indeed in the book[/unspoilered]

Give me four hours, and skim-reading time. I just cannot remember bits of what you said.

Meant to say in that other post that I remember very little about the older Dune film (visuals only, not plot, and how it differs) and I haven't seen the Miniseries at all. But the reread was two months ago. Maybe I did a bad job at the reading.

Spoiler: Fragment kept spoilered (click to show/hide)

(No accusations of Jessica being a traitor

Hmmm... that's a departure. Because it has a knock-on-effect for bits of the potential second film (for second-half-of-book).

That said, it depends a lot on how the film portrays things from the insides of people's heads. There's a lot of written description of the worry <spoiler> has about a change of attitude by <differentspoiler> (knowing something is 'wrong'). While <otherspoiler> might still make a drunken accusation that is plain, and <differentspoiler> makes sure that <spoiler> will be told should <differentspoiler> end up unable to, there's already been a lot of work to do with the internal dialogues and impressions. In some ways Dune is an imagery-based book, hence its adaptations, but boy is there an awful lot that isn't!

[Starver]

Spoiler: Book quote (click to show/hide)

"S'you," she gasped. "Killed ... guard ... sent ... get ... Tuek ... escape ... m'Lady ... you ... you ... here ... no ..." She flopped forward, her head thumping against the stone.

I suppose it depends how you read that, i.e. how you fill in the gaps. I didn't think it meant a planned action had come to nothing (one never mentioned before, and the prior reference to the speaker is 37 pages beforehand as an off-screen character who had recommended an employment, at a time totally different in character, with a big intervening episode between that it seems wasn't filmed) but that such an action should now be initiated occur. And more generally to vacate the vicinity. The only definite arrangements were the ones made by the hiding of supplies and a note (seen later, with slight time-jumped revelations) by the one person who properly could anticipate events...

I could see how it could be understood otherwise, if that's the bit. I'll beg to differ, but it's a tricky one to argue either way. The only one to hear it is at least as confused. And almost immediately afterwards it doesn't matter.

(I'd also forgotten the element of unknowingly going through a door into danger, early on, forcing the actions by the one supposed to be the target. Though, again, it was mostly to reinforce the prophecy than anything else.)

Right, now for some sleep. But nice to revisit the text again.

[delphonso]

I've turned around on the film after these discussions - hope to see it within the next decade, but we'll see. Is it age-appropriate for a 1 year old?

The departures seem...interesting. Somewhat robbing the future films of context, but we'll see, I guess.

[1freeman]

... Is it age-appropriate for a 1 year old?...

Probably not, there are multiple people who are decapitated (offscreen), lots of people dying in explosions/fireballs (onscreen), lots of people getting stabbed/sliced up (nothing too gory), and people getting eaten alive by a sandworm. It's probably a bit much for a 1 year old.

...
I could see how it could be understood otherwise, if that's the bit. I'll beg to differ, but it's a tricky one to argue either way. The only one to hear it is at least as confused. And almost immediately afterwards it doesn't matter.
...

I could be completly wrong about this, but here is how I interpret why Mapes and Tuek are dead in the house on the night of the Harkonnen attack.

Spoiler: One possible interpretation of why Tuek is with Mapes on the day of the attack (click to show/hide)

At the beginning of the chapter where Leto is captured and Mapes dies, Leto receives a message from a fremen that paraphrases a bible quote (Exodus 13:21) talking about being guided through the wilderness to safety (column of smoke by day, pillar of fire by night). During the banquet scene it is pointed out that Tuek has access to fast ships that can get them off world, and Tuek clearly defers to Liet.

Liet knows that the Atreides are set up to fail, and he didn't care about them until the banquet scene when Jessica talks about the dream of making Arrakis a paradise. At that point he starts to change his tune and takes small steps to help preserve the Duke's family without jeopardizing his own mission or position.

I figure he knew when the attack was going to happen, but he wasn't willing to go all in with the Atreides (the mission to terraform Arrakis being much more important to him) therefore, he sends a message that cannot be tied directly to himself but might get the idea about the need to flee. Liet also sends Tuek to contact Mapes and have her help him get Paul and Jessica out before the attack, but since they didn't know the identity of the traitor, they are caught off guard by the one person that can't possibly to be the traitor, and are killed.

I feel that it is important to mention that Leto encounters them while he is on his way to the family wing, they were in a service corridor that intersects the main hallway leading to the family wing, so it seems to me that they were taking the service corridor to the family wing to warn/exfiltrate the Duke's family.

Tuek was closest to the main hallway, and he was stabbed in the chest, Mapes was further from the main hallway and was stabbed in the back. It seems to me that Yueh was walking down the service corridor from the family wing, encountered Tuek and Mapes. He then Killed Tuek by surprise then chased down Mapes and stabbed her in the back.

Again, I could be completely wrong, but that is my own interpretation of the sequence of events in the book (no Tuek in the 2021 movie).

[Cthulhu]

I don't remember much of the book, but I thought the movie was fine.  It looks good and sounds good and that's what's most important to me, being a moron.  All the stuff with the sardaukar is cool, the big ritual gathering where they're introduced and the way they slowly, silently descend into battles is neat.  I wasn't a huge fan of the actual fighting, very fast and floaty and feels like a lot of extra flashy movement for movie purposes, I figured shield-fighting would be like armed wrestling and there's a bit of that but also a lot of sillier stuff.  It's slightly more okay when Paul does it since he can see the future and all, at least he will in the next movie, but still.  A fight between Duncan Idaho and the Sardaukar shouldn't look like random flailing.

And yeah, the sandworms are cool and the sand liquefaction around them, when the one goes by close and the sand breaks on the rocks like it's water looks neat.  I was disappointed they didn't have the scene with Feyd-Rautha fighting in the arena, or Feyd-Rautha at all, but the movie's 2.5 hours and feels like it's only got its teeth into the story, so I guess they can't afford that.  The look of everything was good, the costumes and architecture and technology and stuff was all very nice to look at and gave a proper future-archaic space feudal vibe.  Ending is very abrupt and leaves a lot of things unanswered.  Kind of feels like an extra-long, extra-expensive TV series pilot more than a movie, like I should be able to see where things go next week (or right now in the age of netflix) instead of two years from now or maybe never.

[Superdorf]

It'll flow much better during the 2025 all-night marathons.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

I started re-reading the book and im *about* where it ends in the movie. My only real complaint in comparison is the fighting... it's really big and dumb and not very good in the movie, and it's so badly choreographed compared to the quality of the rest of the film as to be somewhat baffling. But I guess Villeneuve doesn't have too much experience with that stuff?

Reading the book again, they left out like... all of the politics and a good amount of the espionage, which... I mean I'll stand by it had to be trimmed for a film adaptation, but... it misses a lot of the worldbuilding. A lot of the FEEL of the book. So much so that I kinda wish I could see the movie through the eyes of someone who doesn't know all the lore to see how it plays.

[Il Palazzo]

It is an excellent first half of a movie. Goes by terribly fast for its 2.5 hours and the feeling of lack of closure starts dawning on long before the credits roll.
I did not mind any of the changes, thought they were generally good calls (e.g. laser-shield reaction apparently doesn't exist, which is fine, since establishing that would require clunky exposition; instead we get a sense that lasers are a thing, but are big and unwieldy. And that's enough to justify their rarity on the battlefield, without a word of dialogue).
The only issue I had with Kynes was that her acting wasn't terribly good. But then again, it's not like she had much to work with. As an imperial official gone native she did look the part, though.
I actually liked the attack sequence the most - apparently I'm an outlier here. It was haunting and meaty and  industrial a depiction of warfare.
If something bothered me, it was the few lines of exposition that were there. I kinda wish it would go full-on immersion only. Just drop us into this world and let the audience piece together however much they can. Fans of the book would know the background anyway, others would just enjoy the sensory experience. Alas.
On the other hand, it has ornithopters on the mode of the old Cryo's Dune game, which in my book makes it the only film adaptation that got it right.

[Cthulhu]

It mostly does a great job of showing, not telling.  There's a few awkward bits early on like they mention that the Atreides are being sent to Arrakis because the emperor wants them destroyed multiple times, but then visual language of the various factions, you immediately know what everybody's about for the most part.  The Atreides have the classic military-aristocratic look, then the imperial delegation is like weirdo space-roman/space-catholic, which maybe should've been more Persian-influenced, but movie audience, fine, whatever.  Bene Gesserit are very space-witch with their veils and clothing and everything they do.  Then Harkonnen aesthetic you know instantly they're ruthless bad guys, and the sardaukar introduction is already a meme it makes them look so badass.  I also really liked...

Spoiler: The Voice (click to show/hide)

The way the scene with Paul just cuts from him being defiant to him kneeling was really good, showing the character's perception of having the voice used.

Laser/shield not being a thing is sort of okay, but also it was kind of important justification for the prominence of swordfighting.  I guess movie audiences are more willing to just take conceits like that for granted though, which is fine too.

[Il Palazzo]

Laser/shield not being a thing is sort of okay, but also it was kind of important justification for the prominence of swordfighting.  I guess movie audiences are more willing to just take conceits like that for granted though, which is fine too.

In this role, having shields simply stop lasers works too. I believe the explosive risk was specifically to allow for the plausibility of low-tech fremen having a fighting chance.

[Starver]

I still think of it as a kind of RPS/MAD thing (see above), and that it effectively neutered the one thing that most scifi skirts around: lasers/whatever are stupidly powerful (if they exist as a visible and viable weapon[0]), needing stupidly powerful/handwavium shielding to block (somehow) while still apparently being at least distortingly transparent when only normal intensities of light are vying to get in/out of the exclusion zone, so you can still see the shielded ship/person, either with or without an inkling of the aegis of its magically protective coccoon.

The fact they are aware in-universe (by voiced speculation) that it would be trivially possible to set up 'a laser' on a timer to hit this Dune-type area-shield and produce an effect nominally indistinguishable from the use of 'atomics' shows that there's already a hole in that argument, that needs to be further plugged by the apparent situation of everyone (every House, at least, probably Guilds too, etc) readily having actual Atomics at hand anyway but being held under the geas of convention(/weight of empirical authority and backlash) to never use them in the otherwise allowed/encouraged inter-House conflicts. Or even be suspected of using them.


In many ways, this is where plasma-bolts are more logical, in fiction. They are a substance, not just electromagnetic; they have a charge which can sustain but also deplete (Space Is Big™ and eventually any missed shots are unlikely to strike an unrelated moon half the galaxy away to great local consternation) and feasiably be countered by electric/magnetic shielding; they can be seen on-screen, as they emit the energy they eventually must lose entirely, even/especially as they traverse the vacuum of space at a velocity substantially slower than the near-instantaneous one of light itself; and they might even (though not as clearly as the foley artist would have us believe) make sounds, even in 'vacuum', as they shed some of their highly-excited perimiter mass along with their not-quite-self-sustaining energy-packet.


(Star Wars 'lasers' are effectively firing light-sabre 'blades' - or LSs are maintaining a fixed 'laser'-blast at their projective aperture without releasing it, a cavitating energic-pulse then filling the gap between a rear and forward reflector-field (and held in by the lateral bounds of a tube between) that can less quickly move forward[4] (or in a sabre, swung sideways), all of which is not solid[1] nor totally radiation so does what it does in the solid and electromagnetic domains. But does also explain why a 'lightsword' can bounce a 'laserbolt'[2] off it, because it's confining and deflecting both ways across its perimiter. Of course, some of this does not agree with other fancanon, but it works for me. As does the 'fact' that Stormtrooper armour is reactive-armour but constructed inside-out[3].)

• I'm trying to remember if Asimov used them, in his Robots/Empire/Foundation meta-arc spanning many millenia of human expansion and conflict (but scientific stagnation, much of the time, usefully helping to tie in such a long period of 'history' by invoking in-universe zee-rust when tying in far-far-future novels written in the sixties (sixties-style visions of Things To Cone) with 'prequel' links to the established merely-far-future or barely-future ones that were now written in the '80s or thereabouts).  Apart from mining lasers, ISTR most true weaponry threats were physical (ship-to-ship missiles, or interstellar 'bullets' containing pathogens) and the dominant personal sidearm across most of the long future was the 'neuronic whip' which caused great pain or could kill, but was therefore probably an electric weapon that never really was bettered for what use it was originally intended for. - Now you've got me straining to dig out some of those novels, though.
  
  [1] Though, in lore, the Jedi at least can 'tune' the blade to be solid-and-not-dangerous for use as a walking aid or prop. This might be Force Use akin to Granny Weatherwax/Tiffany Akin channelling actual fire safely around their hands, though. I'm not as knowledgable about EU explanations as I'm sure even a quick Wookiepedia visit might help with.
  
  [2] Admitedly, anything that could bounce (most of - except the bits that escape so we can see them) a fully-light laser around inside a blade can surely bounce a fully-light laserbolt off the outside, too. But doesn't explain (beyond The Force?) how one could even see an approaching laser ahead of its arrival, with time enough to physically move to parry it.
  
  [3] Which is why when a 'blaster' shot hits a regular person in a non-critical extremity/shoulder (as it does with heroes, almost without fail) it is debilitating but not really that fatal. The same shot on a Stormtrooper is effectively a killing shot, thanks to the 'armour' blowing up into the wearer, as well
  
  [4] Or even be temporarily held to a stop by a son of Solo...