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Yes !

3 (37.5%)

OK with custom ports

4 (50%)

it would need 1 wrapping

0 (0%)

it would need 2 wrappings

0 (0%)

No, and it would look too wierd with wrapping.

1 (12.5%)

Total Members Voted: 8

Voting closed: June 02, 2014, 04:59:26 pm

[lijacote]

Oh, I didn't even realize there was another water nation. I think It would be a good idea if I switch to a land nation then. I don't know if having two water nations would work well in a multiplayer game, it feels like that would mess up the games dynamics a bit.

I'm fine with going for a land nation, too -- but if you would leave R'lyeh her seas, that's fine too! I've been itching to play a water nation, especially one that was a little bit gimpy. Either way is fine with me.

[E. Albright]

Then there's the mountain pass connection, where you can only cross if you have flying, cold resistance 5, or if both provinces have heat scales. I think that might have been brown, but I'm not sure.

This is actually only half-right. The conditions for traversing mountain-pass borders (i.e., the red/brown ones) is either heat 1+ on both sides, flight, or mountain survival.

[HopFlash]

Oh, I didn't even realize there was another water nation. I think It would be a good idea if I switch to a land nation then. I don't know if having two water nations would work well in a multiplayer game, it feels like that would mess up the games dynamics a bit.

I'm fine with going for a land nation, too -- but if you would leave R'lyeh her seas, that's fine too! I've been itching to play a water nation, especially one that was a little bit gimpy. Either way is fine with me.

The map is large enough for two water nation or not?
With my experiences of the last game it would not too bad if they have some challenge under water. Because it's relative hard to get them down as a land nation I think.

[LongDongSilver]

I'll switch to playing the Yomi then. I don't think two water nations would work out well in a multiplayer game. Water nations already seem kind of gimpy and if we have two it feels like they would be forced to expend a significant amount of resources fighting each other over the oceans, putting the winner far behind where he would have been with only one water player, due to the wasted resources, while the loser would probably be the first eliminated, since I think the conflict would likely happen VERY early on.

In addition, there would be no possibility for 3rd parties to join in due to the whole, "having to breath" thing they have going on, making the war entirely based on skill. Which I lack. So I'd rather not do that.

[tompliss]

On the contrary :
The whole water-breath thing is available via multiple items, ut traditionnal units are considered as "poor amphibians", then, having maluses in many stats, and most of the weapons types have no further maluses (piercing, I think).

Thing is, there are already 22 sea provinces, and they're all near one another. It's way too much for a single nation, but it's enough for 2 nations to fight for (especially as, I think, you should have to conquer land provinces to be at the same province number as the land nations).


Anyway, you should confirm whether we have 1 or 2 sea nation soon, as it would need some map modification.

[HopFlash]

On the contrary :
The whole water-breath thing is available via multiple items, ut traditionnal units are considered as "poor amphibians", then, having maluses in many stats, and most of the weapons types have no further maluses (piercing, I think).

Thing is, there are already 22 sea provinces, and they're all near one another. It's way too much for a single nation, but it's enough for 2 nations to fight for (especially as, I think, you should have to conquer land provinces to be at the same province number as the land nations).

that's nearly what I wanted to say

if one underwater nation has 22 sea provinces it needs a huge amount of "breathing"-things to have enough firepower only to think about conquering the sea as a land nation. Or am I totally wrong?

I had only conquered the mini sea from tompliss in the other game because he hadn't secure it and I had some undeads. But if he had put 25 PD and some recruits I had to wait way longer for mercenaries, artifacts or a wonder

[Edit] But you shouldn't be forced to an underwater nation you don't want
I will find a way to handle this water thing if needed

[tompliss]

Yeap.
Basically, it feels like a land nation have to spend 2 to 3 times the gold/ress to invade a sea province from a sea nation.
And it's quite normal, as the other way around is (to a lesser extend) true.

That's why I don't think having a single water nation for Cradle is a really good thing (especially with 2 sea provinces).
I had a hard tiem getting from a sea to another in Biddyn, because the sea provinces were separated, and Hopflash could get me out of a sea province for long because it was not connected to a sea province with a fort.

In Cradle, all the sea provinces are near one another.
We need at least 2 sea nations, to reduce the number of sea province to a meager 10, or to change map

[LongDongSilver]

On the contrary :
The whole water-breath thing is available via multiple items, ut traditionnal units are considered as "poor amphibians", then, having maluses in many stats, and most of the weapons types have no further maluses (piercing, I think).

Thing is, there are already 22 sea provinces, and they're all near one another. It's way too much for a single nation, but it's enough for 2 nations to fight for (especially as, I think, you should have to conquer land provinces to be at the same province number as the land nations).


Anyway, you should confirm whether we have 1 or 2 sea nation soon, as it would need some map modification.

There are 199 land tiles, so between 11 land factions it seems like they ought to average about 18 provinces each. And 3 of the 22 water provinces aren't actually connected to the rest of the sea, so there would actually only be 19 provinces available for underwater factions, which seems like it ought to be right in-line with what land factions will get, so it doesn't seem like it would be a problem.

Also, I checked what units Ryleh can recruit in a test game. They are really really gimpy. The large majority of their units cant leave the water, leaving them only their basic infantry and their tramplers for troops, but the only commanders that are able to lead the tramplers on land are their lowest level mages, and potentially their pretender. And mage-wise they can only bring up their lowest level mages, who lose path levels out of the water, so for combat magic they're stuck with only level 1's with a level 2 in water, and they can't summon any land creatures because they all can only be cast on land.

So the advantage is there, but it seems really limited, and frankly Ryleh seems like it desperately needs it to stay relevant.

[tompliss]

Alright, I'm modding in the Ports and testing the map, then.

I've updated the player list with you and Yomi, and I let it open for 12 hours.

After that, I'll launch create the server on llama, and we'll just have to send the pretenders

[lijacote]

Then there's the mountain pass connection, where you can only cross if you have flying, cold resistance 5, or if both provinces have heat scales. I think that might have been brown, but I'm not sure.

This is actually only half-right. The conditions for traversing mountain-pass borders (i.e., the red/brown ones) is either heat 1+ on both sides, flight, or mountain survival.

Ah, yes. My bad. This is on page 70 of the manual.

[tompliss]

So, I've created the Map and mod necessary to have the sailor commanders up and working.
Map
Mod

You guys will need to download both, and put the map file in (for windows users) %appdata%\Dominions4\maps\ and extract the content of the mod archive in %appdata%\Dominions4\mods\

You can test it by creating a game, and using the "Cradle of Dominion (With Sailors)" map that should be near the top of the list of the maps : The sailor commanders cost 40g 40 ressources (boats don't appear out of nothing), and they can lead 40 units (up to size 2, human sized).

[Shadowlord]

So they're biased against giants, eh?

[tompliss]

Well, they're not giant sailors.
And they're biased agaisnt mage-focused and pretender-based armies, as non-sailing comanders can't sail with a sailing commander.

So, I may create the game on llamaserver tonight.
let's check the parameters (with 12 players) :

Map: Cradle of Dominion (modified with sailors)
Mods: Worthy heroes (to add/balance the heroes of all the nations)
Era: Early Era
Disciples: No
Time allowance: 28 hours
Special site frequency: 50 (instead of default 45)
Random event frequency: common
Score graphs: no
Hall of Fame: 15
Artifact forging limit y/n?: Limited
Thrones: 12 lvl1, 4 lvl2, 13 points needed (more than half the thrones, even with all the lvl2).
Renaming: yes

[lijacote]

Sailing is a potent thing, so I'm not sure I like them that cheap. If the point is to 1:1 replace the old ports, they should be way more precious. When I was talking with Ohlmann about just this thing on #dominions, we thought it'd be better if it was expensive and StR.  Expensive because it represents getting a ship, or a fleet even, and StR because embarkation and all that. This sort of raised value also means that they're more important to keep alive, and that there's less of them making it possible to sail from anywhere to anywhere within range. The port provinces are, after all, not everywhere, but 40g/40r sailors would be.

Sailing is really, really powerful, and the nations that have it are very privileged in having it. It shouldn't be so easy to get an expanding/raiding army each out there mauling the seven seas each turn.

[tompliss]

I like them at 40 ress and not StR : In my tests, they took 2 to 4 turns to recruit because those are normal provinces, with low ressources. But it also means that, if you build a fort there, it will gather the nearby ressources, and they'll be recruitable in a single turn, simulating how easier it is to get a boat/fleet together when there are many people doing it.

Maybe I should get the gold price up to 70-100.
But as the sailor commander means that your national commanders don't get to lead their army far away, it may be enough of a disadvantage...