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[Fleeb]

Well if I could get my orcs to collect any scalps it'd be an improvement I've had several sieges and killed them all (dwarves) but no scalps. Probably my fault somehow. I have two tanneries, may need to add more I guess. I did manage to put one banner together from kobold thief scalps.

Making raiding a requirement for something is a wall to me because I absolutely cannot get raiding to work. I actually did manage to send an expedition off (thanks to earlier help), but I have no clue if it came back or anything. Got no messages and no longer have my boat.

But anyway, I've very new to Masterwork and it's been literally years since I've played DF at all, so I'm sure I'm hardly representative. Still getting into the hang of things.

On an unrelated note, I cannot get my boworcs to carry arrows. I have tons of bone bodkin arrows made, all bow squads have bodkin arrows set for combat and training, all the guys have quivers, but they will not pick up any arrows. They had been carrying arrows just fine and I've changed nothing, at some point they just stopped picking up arrows from the stockpiles. Any suggestions?

[smakemupagus]

Yeah, I also get many less scalps and souls than I have dead enemies, which i don't really understand either.  Possibly, just need more tanners and totem poles, to preserve the items before they go bad, as you said.

I've never had any problem like that with ammo except occasional intermittent frustrating decision making (like, they fire all the arrows and then go party at gabbro table for a while before getting around to reloading).  One possibility is that hunters have claimed all the existing arrows in the stockpile and you just need to make some more.  You can check somewhere on the squads/ammunition menu the details of which squad, including hunters, have claimed specifically your existing ammo.  But if you have in fact tons of arrows and no errors in Combat/training ammo materials settings then i dunno.

[Guthbug]

Yeah, I also get many less scalps and souls than I have dead enemies, which i don't really understand either.  Possibly, just need more tanners and totem poles, to preserve the items before they go bad, as you said.

I have the same problem. Which is why I always complain about why they don't just use totems. If you don't get around to processing that skull for a few weeks, it's still a skull ... but a scalp is dried up jerky and a soul is ... well, I don't know what an expired soul is.

[smakemupagus]

Which is why I always complain about why they don't just use totems.

I guess the thinking was, because a totem is a totem whether or not it was originally a butchered turkey or whatever.  But a scalp is provably a fallen dwarf.

[Guthbug]

Which is why I always complain about why they don't just use totems.

I guess the thinking was, because a totem is a totem whether or not it was originally a butchered turkey or whatever.  But a scalp is provably a fallen dwarf.

Good point. I'm sure the great green god of orcs is less pleased when you bring him a weasel skull instead of a dwarf scalp.

Do you find that you have to increase invader materials and combat skills when you play orc? They learn combat skills so fast that if I can make it past the early stage, I've got a group of green killing machines that just can't be beat.

[smakemupagus]

Yeah, It seems to me like military skill learn rates have skyrocketed compared to what I remember from versions 2.x or 3.x, especially in live combat.  After just a couple big battles I have already a handful of weapon lords.  But nothing has changed in the orc raws that would affect it -- unless there is some sort of bug well hidden, they are supposed to have learn rates equivalent to vanilla dwarves, with just a few exceptions (ologs and ronin).

I wouldn't mind if bloodsteel and ironbone were nerfed a little bit compared to true steel and iron, although that's up to the whole MWDF community, they aren't purely "orcish" materials.

[Guthbug]

Yeah, It seems to me like military skill learn rates have skyrocketed compared to what I remember from versions 2.x or 3.x, especially in live combat.  After just a couple big battles I have already a handful of weapon lords.  But nothing has changed in the orc raws that would affect it -- unless there is some sort of bug well hidden, they are supposed to have learn rates equivalent to vanilla dwarves, with just a few exceptions (ologs and ronin).

I wouldn't mind if bloodsteel and ironbone were nerfed a little bit compared to true steel and iron, although that's up to the whole MWDF community, they aren't purely "orcish" materials.

I went from a very old version that would run in Linux to a new version that I'm running in Wine, so I skipped a whole lot of middling changes. One or two ologs or ronin in your fort now seems to be able to make the difference between life or death. Well, it all ends in death, I suppose, whether it's succumbing to an invasion or succumbing to the pain of 55 FPS.

I never use ironbone or bloodsteel except when I'm playing warlock, and even then not great gobs of it to outfit everyone. Why bother when in a season or two, if I survive, I'm going to have all the mithril I could ever smelt back down? But I think for orcs (and warlocks) that ironbone and bloodsteel are "gated" appropriately enough in difficulty to have them be the iron and steel equivalents for more tribal (or wicked) races.

If anything, I would diminish their potential but rather add to their ingredient requirements slightly.

[Guthbug]

Inspired by your comment, I looked through the entity files comparing orcs to the other races, and I can't really see anything that I would consider the reason for their accelerated, but Meph's hyper-commenting seems to help a little bit ...

From the orc creature file:

      [SKILL_RATE:DODGING:140:60:12:120]  --dwarves were 115
      [SKILL_RATE:MELEE_COMBAT:140:60:12:120] --dwarves were 115
      [SKILL_RATE:WRESTLING:140:60:12:120] --dwarves were 115

So if I'm reading that right, they are about 25% more combat oriented than dwarves. I know from playtesting that dwarves get really good at combat fairly fast if you divide them into sparring squads and let them do nothing but spar, but orcs seem far and away so much better at combat than the 25% might account for.

Maybe it's the "LIKE FIGHTING" tag that does it all.

[smakemupagus]

Inspired by your comment, I looked through the entity files comparing orcs to the other races, and I can't really see anything that I would consider the reason for their accelerated, but Meph's hyper-commenting seems to help a little bit ...

From the orc creature file:

      [SKILL_RATE:DODGING:140:60:12:120]  --dwarves were 115
      [SKILL_RATE:MELEE_COMBAT:140:60:12:120] --dwarves were 115
      [SKILL_RATE:WRESTLING:140:60:12:120] --dwarves were 115

So if I'm reading that right, they are about 25% more combat oriented than dwarves. I know from playtesting that dwarves get really good at combat fairly fast if you divide them into sparring squads and let them do nothing but spar, but orcs seem far and away so much better at combat than the 25% might account for.

Maybe it's the "LIKE FIGHTING" tag that does it all.

I believe those were my hypercomments   But very good point, I had forgotten that.  And it is in fact melee combat skill and wrestling that i've seen skyrocketing fast more so than the individual weapon skills.  --- or anyway, melee combat seems to go up first, and then the weapon skills follow.

and b.t.w. just a side note this is one of the oldest lines in the orc fortress raws so i bet it was probably the same rates in your old Linux version. That's not to say we can't rebalance it now if need be of course.

[Guthbug]

I believe those were my hypercomments   But very good point, I had forgotten that.  And it is in fact melee combat skill and wrestling that i've seen skyrocketing fast more so than the individual weapon skills.

Heh. Well there's a bajillion lines in those raws, so it's understandable that you'd forget.

But doesn't it seem weird that the 25% results in such a more potent warrior? Legendary is legendary (I think) so at a certain point they aren't going to get any better than any other race, but yeesh, they tear apart even invaders with max skills and materials like they aren't nothing. When a siege happens, my orcs just say, "Ah! Dinner is here! With a fine assortment of weapons and armor to choose from!"

Then it takes longer for them to run out to the siege camp than it does for them to kill everyone. I MIGHT lose one unlucky redshirt every now and then, who just gets replaced without fanfare. And a few others will then go to the hospital to get their boo-boo fixed, and it's back to the armor stand to spar with each other for another season.

It's a little bit gamebreaking for me. I don't have to rely on clever fortress design or traps or weapons when my warrior squad is going to be so uber within a season or two. And the two races which would have the best magical chance of defeating a legendary squad (warlocks and succubi) are on their side.

I use orcs now to mostly do megaprojects, since a squad of well-armored uruks at the front door solves most problems. Or rather, an axe to the forehead solves most problems.

[Guthbug]

Also, I'm not sure it can be "balanced" so easily just by tweaking that 25% number.

With dwarves, I tend to specialize in labor to get the highest skills and the most masterwork gear. I fixate on even my mason turning out masterwork rock thrones to sit on. And peasants I use the library system to further specialize. So at the end of that, I don't have just a ton of spare dwarves to put into a dedicated military squad. (Though all legendary crafters get put in a special militia squad ... best way to protect your assets is to teach them to protect themselves.)

With orcs, I MIGHT specialize one or two orcs, but usually I can dedicate 10 or 20 orcs very quickly to full time military service. Meaning that from the very beginning they are sparring and gaining skills.

I guess what I'm saying is that it's thematic and cultural for them to become so uber so quick and not particularly a matter of numbers and raw files. The orc life is a harsh and brutal one, but that brutality within the confines of the game is only reflected in defending against sieges, which simply aren't up to the task. If they had to storm dwarf citadels or actually board and seize enemy ships at sea in some in-game fashion then you'd have more combat parity as the losses would be higher, even with the uberness of orcs calculated in. But as those aren't yet game mechanics which can be implemented, we end up through normal game play with a surplus of legendary warriors who have no real challenge.

[smakemupagus]

Yeah, I'm with you on all that.  Also, I think the early/mid game is closer to properly challenging if we turn down the number of allies a little from the MWDF launcher default and maybe swap out weaklings like gnomes for some of the tougher invaders.  As cute as the little rascals are wielding screwdrivers and riding war skunks, they're basically XP pinatas.

a surplus of legendary warriors who have no real challenge.

There's plenty of room at the bottom!

[Guthbug]

Yeah, I'm with you on all that.  Also, I think the early/mid game is closer to properly challenging if we turn down the number of allies a little from the MWDF launcher default and maybe swap out weaklings like gnomes for some of the tougher invaders.  As cute as the little rascals are wielding screwdrivers and riding war skunks, they're basically XP pinatas.

a surplus of legendary warriors who have no real challenge.

There's plenty of room at the bottom!

Heh. Gnome meat is probably a delicacy. I just wish they would bring some of their fabulous inventions with them. Orcs wearing roller skates ... awesome! And my ologs would LOVE a chainsaw.

Digging down into the third cavern is pretty cool as you get some interesting critters to fight. Breaching hell though is instant lag death for any fortress. Or it used to be anyway. I haven't done it in forever.

My computer can't handle a whole lot of combat going on for extended periods of time. For instance, if I create a black monolith in warlocks then it's pretty much going to cut me down from my normal 300 fps to about 90 with all the walking parts, hands, feet, and heads crawling around upstairs. It'll last until the next dwarf invasion when they clear out all the undead on the surface.

Don't for a minute get the impression that I'm downing on the orc mode. I love, love, LOVE it. I have played it almost to the exclusion of everything else for a very, very long time. I've explored every asset of it and even gone in to modify it somewhat to do different things. (Imagine a fortress that is 100% snaga only, by tweaking the caste percentile. Or a fortress which is olog only and can never craft anything beyond bone, stone, and wood. )

[smakemupagus]

v5.10.OF1

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

* WOOD_PLANKS_SPORE_ORC (gob mill)
* WOOD_PLANKS_GLUMP_ORC (gob mill)
* WOOD_PLANKS_FEATH_ORC (gob mill)
* CUT_SMALL_SPORE_ORC (nethermill)
* CUT_SMALL_FUNGI_ORC (nethermill)
* CUT_SMALL_GLTHORN_ORC (nethermill)
* CUT_SMALL_SHTHORN_ORC (nethermill)
* GLASSTHORN_ORC (nethermill; strip to rough clear glass)
* BURN_SMALL_SPORE_ORC (factory)
* BURN_GNARLED_ROOTS_ORC (factory)
* HEAL_PET_ORC (stone circle)
* TRIBAL_CRISKNIFE_ORC (tribal crafter; basic shard knife)
* Add tribal crisknife to item_weapon_ranged
* TRIBAL_DREAMSTAFF_ORC (tribal crafter; basic rune stave)
* Add tribal staff to item_weapon_ranged
* Entity permit all of above

* Remove (malfunctioning) Minotaur transform from Altar of Storms
* INORGANIC:NERVE_STAPLE_STONE (remove emotions, sight, speed)
* REACTION:NERVE_STAPLE_ORC (Altar of Storms)
* Entity permit

* BUILDING_WORKSHOP:MUCK_GOBLIN (clay crafts and perhaps other bog related activities)
* CLAY_JUG_ORC
* CLAY_POT_ORC
* CLAY_CRAFT_ORC
* CLAY_HIVE_ORC
* CLAY_STATUE_ORC
* PEAT_FUEL_ORC
* Entity permit all of above
* Entity permitted a number of glazing reactions from reaction_other such as ORC_BOLD_GLAZE_JUG_ASH

* [BUILDING_FURNACE:ARBALEST_ORC][NAME:Looted arbalest] quite hard -- Requires dwarven prisoner AND tools, and mechxbow
* [BUILDING_FURNACE:TREBUCHET_ORC][NAME:Looted cannon tower] quite hard -- Requires dwarven prisoner AND tools, and cannon
* inorganic: MORPHSTONE_TREBUCHET_ORC
* inorganic: MORPHSTONE_GUNNER_ORC
* REACTION:ORC_TREBUCHET_3
* REACTION:ORC_ARBALEST_3
* Entity permit all of above

* Re-Enabled raiding ruins
* Ruins raid creates antmen siege probability
* Greatly reduced probability of highest tier loot from ruins (expected value ~1 high tier item)

* Fix, remove chance of free extra longboat from Farm raid
* Increase yield of BUY_TAIGASEED_PACKET (cost is pretty high)
* Tweak Tavern gambling; winnings are in 500 coin stacks, same expected value
* CRAFT_SCARECROW_ORC (kob trickster) now creates a spellstone, rather than a tool (will need testing)
* Craft rock decoy (kob trickster) removed
* Shaggy Mumakil 3x more expensive (petvalue 3000)
* Added Squigs with castes Breeder (female/egg/milk), Eating, Wooly(yarn), Growler(wartrain), and Terrier(verminhunter).  This is intended to fill a niche of low cost ranch critters and be not nearly as effective as the more expensive orc creatures. 
* Create graphics for squigs
* Reference graphics for squigs

* Removed soulgem requirement for smelting materials at Ancient Foundry
* Added soulgem requirement for crafting weapons at Arcane Forge
* Removed dream talisman requirement for crafting mundane Temple Guard's weapons at S&S (still req soulgem for Dawn/Eveningstar consecration)

*** hack/lua
* Fixed typo in reaction-hook.lua (_WARMRAY not _WARMYRAY)
*insertPet("TAIGA","SQUIG","MALE")
*insertPet("TAIGA","SQUIG","FEMALE")
*insertPet("TAIGA","SQUIG","WOOLY")
*insertPet("TAIGA","SQUIG","GROWLER")
*insertPet("TAIGA","SQUIG","TERRIER")

v5.10.OF2

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

* Looted arbalest uses ballista parts (not unobtainable mechanical crossbow)
* typo in runesmith blueprint

* human captives are now the unlocking builditem for caravanserai bazaars
* boosted probability of human captives at successful merchant shipping raid from 10 to 25

* war standards uses 5 scalps rather than 10.  (scalps being hard to collect and process before they rot)
* meadhall requires 2 standards rather than 4; requires ironbone rather than iron furniture
* domestic warrior societies (jaguar, dragon, falcon, seawolf) no longer require codex
* war standards are now needed @ 1 per warrior society gear kit

* squig egg laying rate reduced to 1:6

* new items "raider treasure map" and "raider assault plan" available as rare drop from basic raid loot and dead-mans holdem
* RAID_RUINS_ORC now only possible with a treasure map.  Added ancient foundry and magma source as rare drop from ruins loot.
* loot unpack changed from [AUTOMATIC] to -AUTOMATIC-
* new item MOUNTAINHOME_LOOT_CRATE
* RAID_MOUNTAINHOME_ORC w/ only possible with an assault plan and 3 boats; partial success possible, up to 2 dwarf and 1 special crate

* added small chance to loot barbarian tech on raids
* reduced chance to dreamwalk barbarian tech per talisman (was too easy to get very early)
* added chance to learn spells when dreamwalking greater souls

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=6732
UNTESTED clean error log, no crash on world gen
~~ download for entertainment purposes only ~~

[Guthbug]

Do you know what you have done??

You have just destroyed my productivity for the entire weekend. The kids will go hungry, the garden will grow thick with weeds, the goats will go unmilked, and a state of general decay will ensue until some days later when I emerge from in front of my laptop, staggering bleary-eyed into the open air.