Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[forsaken1111]

Speaking of, you know what's really annoying? I didn't realize ethereal bows and such had quality, so my warlocks were churning out masterwork ethereal bows and then throwing tantrums when they vanished. Also isn't there supposed to be a reaction to just make ethereal arrows? I don't need to keep making bows if I can just crank out unlimited ammunition and use normal boring ironbone bows or something.

From what I remember, that's a feature. Drawing too deeply from the ether being damaging to your sanity is how I remember it being explained in-fluff.

Eh, just would have been nice to know beforehand. It didn't matter in the end, I just walled the upset warlocks off and let them starve to death then raised them again.

[Flare]

That effect is in the manual included in the mod folder.

[forsaken1111]

That effect is in the manual included in the mod folder.

I noticed that later, once I actually looked at the manual.

[Kars]

"The backbone of your fort. Skeletons and Zombies do most of the menial labors, like woodcutting, mining and crafting. They are unable to learn new skills and move rather slowly. They never eat, drink or sleep, making them a cheap workforce."

"Skeletons come in 4 castes: Bone, Ironbone, Bloodsteel and Dreadnought. Each caste gets 2 points in natural skills and 25% higher learn rates than the previous."

"They are unable to learn new skills"
"25% higher learn rates than the previous."

am I reading this wrong?

[Niveras]

They can learn some. I think? I haven't played warlocks in a while. But they can increase skills at the inscription studio (or whatever it is called), so possibly the learn bonus applies there (meaning it would take fewer trips/resources to grant a dreadnaught skeleton a lot of skill versus a normal one).

[Kars]

Ah, cause I was thinking about playing one in adventure mode. Ghouls don't really seem to learn certain skills either. Strange

[Niveras]

Oh, right. Skeletons definitely learn military skills as normal. It's the civilian jobs that they don't (though I think they train mining normally in addition to the studio). Same applies for ghouls - military skills with the exception of weapons, but plus wrestling and whips.

[vjmdhzgr]

Ah, cause I was thinking about playing one in adventure mode. Ghouls don't really seem to learn certain skills either. Strange

It's mostly due to limitations with the graphics. You can change a creature's tile by profession, but not caste so if ghouls could learn normal weapon skills, or gem cutting, then they'd look like a skeleton or warlock.

[Meph]

"The backbone of your fort. Skeletons and Zombies do most of the menial labors, like woodcutting, mining and crafting. They are unable to learn new skills and move rather slowly. They never eat, drink or sleep, making them a cheap workforce."

"Skeletons come in 4 castes: Bone, Ironbone, Bloodsteel and Dreadnought. Each caste gets 2 points in natural skills and 25% higher learn rates than the previous."

"They are unable to learn new skills"
"25% higher learn rates than the previous."

am I reading this wrong?

No, but I probably should have written "higher military skill learn rates". Skeletons only learn military skills, like sword, armor, shield, etc. None of the actual labors.

[taldarus]

Been playing in my spare time. Couple of tweaks/suggestions for playing warlocks.

First, on ghouls: Does anybody actually use them? I personally prefer to use zombies (even back when they where uncontrollable). I was thinking of adjusting the bite syndrome, because I don't think I have ever actually seen their victim become a zombie. Does it work? Is it just a really long delay? I think it's just too long a delay. I would like to adjust it to a 1 minute delay, and a low chance of happening.

Zombies & Ghoul squads:
I created a zombie squad. It looks like it should work, but I get the 'no acceptable candidates' message no matter what, for both zombies and ghouls.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[POSITION:GHOUL_COMMANDER] => ghoul only squad leader
     [NAME:ghoul master:ghoul masters]
     [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL]
     [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL_4ARM]
     [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL_2HEAD]
     [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:GHOUL_2HEAD_4ARM]
     [CREATURE_CLASS:GHOUL]

     [SITE]
     [NUMBER:AS_NEEDED]
     [SQUAD:25:ghoul:ghouls]
     [APPOINTED_BY:EXPEDITION_LEADER]
     RESPONSIBILITY:MILITARY_STRATEGY
     [PRECEDENCE:200]
     [DO_NOT_CULL]
     [DUTY_BOUND]
     MILITARY_SCREEN_ONLY
     [REQUIRED_TOMB:250]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[POSITION:ZOMBIE_HORDE] => skeleton only squad leader
     [NAME:zombie horde:zombie hordes]
     [ALLOWED_CREATURE:WARLOCK_CIV:ZOMBIE]
     [ALLOWED_CLASS:ZOMBIE]   
     [SITE]
     [NUMBER:AS_NEEDED]
     [SQUAD:50:zombie:zombies]
     [APPOINTED_BY:EXPEDITION_LEADER]
     RESPONSIBILITY:MILITARY_STRATEGY
     [PRECEDENCE:200]
     [DO_NOT_CULL]
     [DUTY_BOUND]
     MILITARY_SCREEN_ONLY

I intend to create MASSIVE zombie hordes that are controllable to sweep across the ENTIRE...3x3 map... No gear/armor/weapons, just regular zombie action. Without being able to select a candidate though creates a problem. It looks correct, did I miss something?

On to REBORN. I noticed in the post that people are talking about the necromancers. Honestly, I keep having to remind myself that they are...Warlocks...

I like the idea of progression. Perhaps the goal is obtaining immortality for themselves? So everyone starts out as 'regular joes'. A nice normal colony of humans, and at some point one of them discovers the secret to immortality. He then kills off everyone else, reanimating them one-by-one into undead servants. A 'rise of the plump helmet men', but in reverse.

Functionally, you could probably just add them as a sub-race, say humans. A special workshop (using a secret tome) allows the player to create a single necromancer. I would recommend the time delayed release, like for the hermit. I don't want to play humans (too human...), but would tolerate 3 years as humans to do the rest... So for the first one to three years, you play a normal human game. At the end of the time, the secret tome is provided, and a player can choose to progress down a darker path. Actually, I think I would play for twenty years, slowly build a temple of light, paladins and priest all over... Only so I can secretly create a dark cult of undeath beneath them...*DROOL*

A clever player can then take steps to build a secret 'second' base for his hidden and growing undead army. Necromancers are all safe in the living portion, but if the undead ever bump into the living all hell breaks loose. So with care, you can farm the living city for years, before you are discovered. When the undead are discovered the living all rise up (actually they would be cultists, and the zombies detectors, I think...), this forces your hand and you will loose all control over the living (But if you never create a necromancer, normal human gameplay...OOH! Paladins...the FUN...)

The old versions usage of souls never felt right to me, for necromancy. A necromancer feels more like they consume the souls of the living to become more powerful. Souls for a necromancer shouldn't decay. These guys are masters of death, unable to let a soul simply wither-away. I don't mind the idea of a dedicated warlock working to preserve them, but it doesn't make sense that he needs a specific reagent to do it.

Phylacteries, in a completely fictional way, are said to preserve the soul of the living. Allowing a living being to move his soul into a special device, while not losing control of his 'physical form'. A soul attached to a phylactery should be more ghost-like; and when used properly, able to possess dead flesh, inanimate objects and the like. A soul-infused undead would, in theory, still be equal to a living person, save that the phylactery is what needs to be destroyed.

--Units--
Zombies/skeletons/?souless types - don't improve/worsen. Super cheap to replace, maintain, and field. Different types have different uses.
Thralls - Part-living beings who have had their 'souls' stripped from their flesh while they still live. This would be the typical 'vampire movie' mind-slave guy. Subservient and retaining their skills, they can even learn in a rudimentary way. Useful in that you can get a soul from them, and still retain a margin of usefulness from them.
Ghouls - Part-living beings who still retain their soul (able to learn). They are driven mad by dark magics, and crave to consume the flesh of the living. Violent, powerful, and forgets whatever they are doing to kill whatever they see. Ghouls would be created by the player, almost identically to how they are currently made. Their fragility is balanced by learning (Thinking of changing ghouls in original atm)
Vampires - ?
Apprentice - Tempted into black arts by your necromancer, mortal.
Journeymen...etc (lifespan increases as they progress? So a master is able to live 900 years... still needs food and drink...)
Lich - Once a phylactery has been made (SUPER expensive, maybe needs adamantine?) Your necromancer can become a lich. Immortal, tireless, well spring of awesome kick-buttery. If you die, the phylactery is salvageable, and ANYTHING can put it on at the 'throne of ascension' or something, and your Lich is reborn. (worker dies, but who cares about undead?)

The original Warlock experience was overly intimidating. I loved inscription, upgrading skeletons, pylons (laying out a fort), and the slaughter. Oh the slaughter....BUT the start (...and end...) of the game was so incredibly different from any of the other races. (I haven't ever used a farm...). Linking them to humans would allow a more regular start, but guaranteed FUN!

[Fairin]

@taldarus,  i like that idea, and dislike humans as much (theres like 8 billion people playing humans in RL.. shits overrated)

Warlocks were my first race to breach the circus and win it with martial might - so many dreadnaught skeles

I'd like the option to straight up "make" a dreadnaught skele, materials included... also warlocks need a way to get a philosophers stone besides bringing one at embark....(dat bismuth is rare as fk!)

I'd trade over 100 souls for one in an instant, but considering how easy it is to embark with one.. DF hack to the rescue in my current fort =D

Meph, can opposed to life skeletons be an option in the future, i swear the game hates my skeletons sometimes, even caused a loyalty cascade after i made the stupid skeleton banner thing (involving the gargantuan bone golems attacking my skeletons.. who attacked my ghouls.. who .. bleh )

[taldarus]

Edited: Rearranged and rewrote post.

Observations and alterations:

Zombies - Even though they are mindless, they are too powerful. Need a hundred cages build a ton of workshops and churn em out in hurry. Too many things don't require quality craftsmanship. (Would necromancers/warlocks care about wealth?)

Skeletons - Gave them the ability to learn, in equality to combat skills (50%, 75%, 100%, 125%). I still don't use them a lot, preferring to use zombies, but it gives them more functional use. I like this change. Gameplay FEELS the same, but now you have an end game class. Dreadnoughts.

-Cost of souls should go up to balance learning ability. (I think five souls)
-Dreadnoughts, being the culmination of black magic, can use magic. (I have it set to they all can, but that is too powerful)
   -For bloodsteel and dreadnought, how about the cost is only the additional ingredient? I don't see why that wouldn't work, and it would reduce the cost. (Ironbone skeleton -> 10 units of blood = Bloodsteel skeleton -> 10 souls = Dreadnought skeleton)

Ghouls - changed their bite, but still don't use em...

Etherial Material -
No value option =
Cons - No value allows the player to build safely and secretly, without drawing the attention of more fierce invaders. If you are careful you an probably get to year 5 with almost no 'value' to your massive fort. (I had a game reach year 4 before a siege)
Pros - Tantrums are a real problem here.
High value option =
Cons - Emotions are easy to deal with.
Pros - Sieges show up in serious numbers very quickly

Phylacteries - I have removed their dependence on hourglasses. This is nice, because when tied to the skeleton change, reduces the early game dependence on digging. Inscription becomes a more later game option (it is still SUPER fast). A warlock fort can now survive entirely above ground in the early years. (But that means building with etherial, which increases risk of early sieges)

Philosopher stone - (not changed, but easy to do so)

Evaluation:
All-in-all, I am very pleased with my changes. I find that warlock mode runs much smoother this way. I no longer start thinking about stones and gems. I actually focus on designing a small'ish bunker/fort to get my warlocks indoors and protected from sieges. Sieges are still cageable, but if you abstain from caging them, they usually arrive before I have really finished developing my 'traditional' warlock fort. (I overbuilt my forts, building massive complicated forts that almost don't even need traps to kill invaders). I haven't gotten far enough yet, but several forts have actually gotten overrun.

My previous fort was hit by stranglers, but even as I was mopping up the field elves ambushed me. I lost three warlocks, and took a huge hit in the zombie department. I still handled it, until the third siege showed up. Year 2 (Maybe summer? Can't remember, three sieges in spring...) defeat.

Originally:
Elf "Sir there is a black tower being built near here."
Captain "We can give it a few years, they are still weak."

Now:
Elf "Sir there is a black tower being built near here."
Captain "OH ****! Contact everyone, we must unite and destroy these foul creatures immediately, before they get too strong."

Additional:
Do people obey the class boundaries? (I never use skeletons/ghouls/zombies for magic work (IE graveyard digging, is SUPER tempting))
Do people use pylons? Is there a functional reason to use pylons anymore?
One class/race?
-I am currently leaning this direction. Only skeletons no classes. Maybe adding gems makes a skeleton better at magic? Zombies kept, but as pet/mechanic/vermin hunter? Remove Ghouls? Remove Warlocks?
Problem with undead is they don't need food or drink...but they do need SOULS! Souls are a plant, could they be designed to only eat souls? Still no drinking, but at least it allows the dining room to remain in-game functional. Soul Wine?

[Fairin]

sounds like you're doing a good job going indepth for warlocks Taldarus, toss it here i'd like to give it a run - but fix the philospher stone please =P

i DO mostly obey class boundries, i have used a skeleton to make arrows constantly form the ethereal forge for a 25 archer squad tho (man that arrow use!)

i would like ghouls better if their weapon of choice didn't suck so bad against helmets, i'd perfer a piecing/slashing claw+teeth weapon, even so they make great militia 'hunters'

one class/race? What, like just skeletons?  Skeleton fort? Skeleton fort with the ability to turn one into your lich leader.....

PS. i never used zombies as haulers.. gonna try that now... lol.. =)

[taldarus]

Love the idea of using a forge for arrows.
How should we balance that, unlimited free steel arrows is a bit OP, especially if you use a skeleton/zombie to run the reaction. (Skeletons can learn magic, but can't tantrum...)

Trying to upload to DFFD atm. Stupid china... It's an 80kb file...

EDIT: uploaded
http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=11153

[Arcvasti]

Love the idea of using a forge for arrows.
How should we balance that, unlimited free steel arrows is a bit OP, especially if you use a skeleton/zombie to run the reaction. (Skeletons can learn magic, but can't tantrum...)

Skeletons having non-0% skill growth for non-military skills is a bug. Plus steel arrows aren't that much better then copper arrows because of how projectiles are calculated[There was a science thread on different material types and projectiles, not sure if its still relevant in the new version.].