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Author Topic: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy  (Read 23668 times)

Flarp

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Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« on: May 23, 2014, 02:30:35 am »

So, recently, Blizzard's Dustin Browder said some stuff about his company's obligation (or lack thereof) to be progressive in their depiction of women - with phrases like "comic book sensibilities" and "we're not sending a message" being used. With Nintendo also embroiled in controversy over the lack of same-sex relationships in their new Sims-esque social game - and the comment sections following these stories full of unproductive pettiness on all sides, I figured here might be a sort of okay place to get the discussion going. If this should go in the Other Game subforum, apologies - that section looked like it was exclusively for single-game threads.

So, here's what I see as the central questions, and as good a starting point as any:

1. Do private corporations, like Blizzard and Nintendo, have any form of obligation (legal, financial, social, moral, etc.) to avoid the objectification of women and erasure of under-represented groups in their products, even when it is not in their direct monetary interest?
2. Do gamers - especially those who play games with subscription fees - have a responsibility to preferentially patronize game makers that follow the standards in #1?
3. Do you personally feel that an overt effort to be more "inclusive" or "diverse" harms the overall enjoyability of a game - or, alternatively, enhances it?

By no means are these the only questions to be asked on what is a complex, wide-ranging, and divisive issue. Feel free to respond to them, or any others that occurred to you while reading this.

Here are my thoughts, hidden behind a spoiler because WHOAH OPINIONS:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So, let's get the frothing rage going.
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Glowcat

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2014, 03:04:34 am »

So, let's get the frothing rage going.

k

White cis heterosexual dudes opinions tend to be worthless on this matter since many of them repeatedly show a complete inability to grasp the level of alienation that minorities feel from mainstream stories (in video games or otherwise) and even their own depictions in them.

The only obligation companies have to be more diverse is to do it if they don't want to be assholes who perpetuate marginalization of groups under whatever garbage pretext they want. Usually this is commercial interests but just because capitalism lends itself towards oppression doesn't mean people who exacerbate its problems can't be called out on that behavior.

I don't feel gamers have any obligations to support diversity-seeking games. Depending on economic class it might not even be feasible.

And no, it never will harm the image of a game. The only people who feel that are the whining shits that think anytime somebody who doesn't happen to be a cis heterosexual white dude is cast that it's a "PC" intrusion in their pure gaming experience. Their opinion's transparent bigotry doesn't need to be treated as intellectually worthy of debate.

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Arx

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2014, 03:13:35 am »

3. Do you personally feel that an overt effort to be more "inclusive" or "diverse" harms the overall enjoyability of a game - or, alternatively, enhances it?

I may be in a minority on this point, but I really don't care much about whether a game tries to be diverse or not.
I do, however find it a bit odd if there are multiple (openly) homosexual characters in a cast of less than 20 or so, as I live in a fairly pro-gay country and (warning: anecdotal) I've only ever met one openly gay person, and that's not for want of meeting people.

That's my $0.002 at the current exchange rate.
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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2014, 03:22:00 am »

.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:19:53 am by Vector »
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da_nang

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2014, 03:40:49 am »

1. My liberal side says no because of freedom of speech. The "PC"-side is just as well free to protest both vocally and financially. Oh, the laments of a social-liberal.
2. Um, no? Freedom of choice right there.
3. It's not so much as trying to make games more "diverse" that harms enjoyability. It's whether they do it successfully and don't fuck it up, just like all other features. That's game development 101.

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2014, 03:48:21 am »

* LordSlowpoke answers OP only

1. moral only, societal in extremes (there is shit that just won't slide)

2. fuck no

3. to write something diverse you need to write your characters and after that, randomize their sex and gender

writers do not understand that so forcing them to produce diverse things removes value from the end product
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BFEL

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2014, 03:52:01 am »

I think Jim Sterling put it best: The most inclusive game in the world is Saints Row 4. Its stupid, crass, immature to the extreme, and all that and more can be enjoyed by anyone regardless of bodytype, sexual orientation, skin color, whatever. Everyone gets to smack everyone else with dildo bats.

So it can definitely be done while keeping our silly immature fun, though I'm still not sure what a good more serious example would be.
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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2014, 03:59:22 am »

White cis heterosexual dudes opinions tend to be worthless on this matter [...]
Just wondering if you are being serious here, since you sound like one of the feminism parodies you can find all over the internet.
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Gatleos

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2014, 04:31:40 am »

White cis heterosexual dudes opinions tend to be worthless on this matter [...]
Just wondering if you are being serious here, since you sound like one of the feminism parodies you can find all over the internet.
I'm only like 10% joking here, I think the internet broke me a bit. I always assume arguments like that are serious, just because I've seen so much of that stereotypical sjw tumblr garbage. I think I lost the ability to put a little faith in people when it comes to this subject.

If Glowcat was being serious there, I'm not sure what to say. Does a "well I don't think that way" argument even count for anything?
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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2014, 04:58:04 am »

White cis heterosexual dudes opinions tend to be worthless on this matter
I'll give mine anyway.  ;)

1. I don't think game companies have any obligation to promote diversity. They obviously do have a commercial interest to do so though, otherwise all games would be Leisure Suit Larry. White cis hetero males may still be perceived as the majority of gamers for some reason (maybe they were at some point), but clearly if you want to sell games to as many people as possible, you have to target a more diverse group. Whether you do that by making your games more inclusive overall or going for a niche market is up to the company, but it is definitely happening (even if maybe not at the same pace as society is changing). In that sense capitalism leads to more diversity, because there is societal demand for it.

2. Gamers don't have any obligations in that regard either, they'll just buy whatever they like, except if they want to make a statement obviously.

3. I feel efforts to be more diverse and inclusive are only hurtful to the enjoyment of a game (or any other fiction) if they feel shoehorned in, not organic, overtly educational and poorly written.
As how organic or realistic you perceive diversity in a fictional setting may depend on your personal environment of course, so that is also connected to how diverse society is overall. So if you don't know any gay people, you might not even notice a lack of gay characters. If you do know gay people you might be put off by having them represented as walking stereotypes.

Also there are a lot of games where characterization doesn't matter all that much. At least for me, identifying with or immersing in characters is not really that important for my enjoyment of a game. I play mostly strategy games where characters are either largely irrelevant or where diversity would be historically inaccurate. In other games I tend to perceive game characters as an accumulation of stats that help me kill stuff, so I care a lot less about them than I would in other fiction.
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Flarp

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2014, 05:21:45 am »

So, let's get the frothing rage going.
White cis heterosexual dudes opinions tend to be worthless on this matter since many of them repeatedly show a complete inability to grasp the level of alienation that minorities feel from mainstream stories (in video games or otherwise) and even their own depictions in them.

Okay, so, under the assumption Glowcat wasn't being facetious, this is the full quote. The whole sentence is important context and makes a valid point I think I can elaborate on, BUT "tend to be worthless on this matter" strikes me as needlessly inflammatory phrasing.

Whatever your definition of "the majority" is - in ascending order of granularity, men, white men, straight white men, straight white cissexual men, straight white cissexual Christian men, etc - it is a logical conclusion of the framework our society is based on that members of that majority enjoy mastery over popular culture and historiography. This means that the "default" perspective of your average cultural work - be it a novel, a film, or a video game - is that of a member of the majority.

Without in any way calling into question your intelligence or argumentative acumen, let me state that it is extraordinarily difficult for members of the majority to conceptualize what it is like to not enjoy this cultural mastery - whether this is inherent human nature or a by-product of our current society is for someone better versed in the humanities to decide. I'm not knowledgeable enough to define it beyond that, but it is an excellent chance to segue into...

3. Do you personally feel that an overt effort to be more "inclusive" or "diverse" harms the overall enjoyability of a game - or, alternatively, enhances it?

I may be in a minority on this point, but I really don't care much about whether a game tries to be diverse or not.
I do, however find it a bit odd if there are multiple (openly) homosexual characters in a cast of less than 20 or so, as I live in a fairly pro-gay country and (warning: anecdotal) I've only ever met one openly gay person, and that's not for want of meeting people.

That's my $0.002 at the current exchange rate.

I do sort of agree with you on this point, to be honest, but it's a hard issue to solve. The problem is that queer people - a term I use out of grudging convenience alone - are "clumped" in their representations, both in video games and in general, because "LGBT" is still a genre, not an element to be included evenly. I've played exactly three games that included gay relationships: Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2, and the Sims. I'm going to ignore the Sims because it's hard to classify for a lot of reasons (the whole "it's a toy, not a game" thing, etc.), but I would never shy away from an opportunity to brown-nose Bioware some more.

I didn't pay that much attention to the flak surrounding the two bisexual characters in DA:O, but I assume it was relatively tame, because they were two amongst a cast of at least ten different characters, and there were fairly traditional romantic interests to complement them. Dragon Age 2, on the other hand, made every love interest bisexual (or, at least, have some sort of Schrödinger’s Sexuality until you picked Hawke's gender), and IIRC, got quite a lot of heat for it.

Personally, I'm a fan of this approach, even if it is quite unrealistic - because it seems the natural progression from the loinclothed-barbarians-and-buxon-wenches fantasy to our more progressive Westerosesque-fantasy where everyone gets action with everyone (eventhoughtherearestillmoreboobsthananythingelsebutwhateverwegotacoupledicks). Neither of them really ever made pretensions to the grimy reality of Medieval Europe, and more than anything it avoids the tiresome issue where there is exactly one homosexual love interest and they're just not that likeable (whereas heterosexual players may have a much wider range of options).
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Gatleos

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2014, 05:34:19 am »

Personally, I'm a fan of this approach, even if it is quite unrealistic - because it seems the natural progression from the loinclothed-barbarians-and-buxon-wenches fantasy to our more progressive Westerosesque-fantasy where everyone gets action with everyone (eventhoughtherearestillmoreboobsthananythingelsebutwhateverwegotacoupledicks). Neither of them really ever made pretensions to the grimy reality of Medieval Europe, and more than anything it avoids the tiresome issue where there is exactly one homosexual love interest and they're just not that likeable (whereas heterosexual players may have a much wider range of options).
I prefer that approach too. It makes it seem less like "everyone is bisexual for some reason" and more like an instance of player choice. Whatever the player chooses, be it a homosexual relationship or heterosexual one, the narrative adapts to it and fits their love interest with the appropriate sexuality. Unfortunately, some people seem to be offended at the very idea of there being an alternative option for people unlike them.
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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2014, 05:50:07 am »

2. Do gamers - especially those who play games with subscription fees - have a responsibility to preferentially patronize game makers that follow the standards in #1?
That's their call, but I hope not. I don't want games to succeed or fail because the main character is a transgendered bisexual Chinese-Nigerian woman or the only Italian person in the game is a 2D caricature villain. I want them to succeed or fail because they're good or bad games, not good or bad expressions of political, ideological, or social Rightthinking.

3. Do you personally feel that an overt effort to be more "inclusive" or "diverse" harms the overall enjoyability of a game - or, alternatively, enhances it?
Overt? Yes. Intentionally injecting political bullshit into things tends to make them worse products on the whole. If you can seamlessly integrate favorable examples of minorities you like or parables on political issues you care about into a work, then great- but far more often, in my experience, it just ends up preachy and obnoxious.

For that matter, I don't tend to find "diversity" very compelling in general, or at least not on those lines. Consider the current trend of having a black guy and a woman in every media squad. Does that make the work more enjoyable, or just give it another arcane rule everything follows? For me, it's the latter. Even if it were better done or those characters were ones I liked a lot, would they be better because they're black and everyone else isn't? For me, again, no, not that I've noticed.

What I can't accept is that this entire sexy paradise collapses the moment you introduce a female character that wears clothes and has motivations, or a homosexual character that isn't a jibe at gay men or a fetishization of lesbians -  and yet, this is the view that I see most represented in the "too much inclusiveness is bad" camp. My understanding of this position is that video games are perceived by some as a place where the crass and the juvenile is accepted - to an extent, they are - and that scantily-clad babes and no gays are an integral part of this. Thus, under this model, to make video games "grow up" and incorporate a more adult understanding of gender relations would be like ordering steak au poivre at McDonalds' - if you wanted something that fancy, you should have read a novel/gone to a french bistro.

But obviously, that's not the case; not all video games are World of Warcraft and Tomodachi Life. The go-to counterexample, Bioware, has strived to both create complex storylines and write a diverse cast (both to varying degrees of success), and faced a fairly strong internet backlash for it, which suggests to me that people aren't just reacting to the "political correction" of their more basal pleasures, but are instead repulsed by the very notion that the simplicity of the gaming experience - immersion into a different world, disconnection from your own - could be complicated by the inclusion of a nuanced conception of who likes to bang who and why. Or maybe I'm just ridiculously projecting my own insecurities.

I think - and I'm putting on my flame goggles here - that a great deal of this cringing away from diversity has to do with the fact that the dominant group that is now being challenged, heterosexual, predominantly white men, has not, as a group, experienced exclusion to any significant degree. Thus, when different groups clamour for representation, they lack the context to view that as a simple request to be allowed to play with all of the other reindeer - and not as a political statement.
I have to wonder how representative this is. Of anything, really. Sounds to me like you might be confusing a handful of raging internet assholes with... well, a larger, more coherent group, at least.


Whatever your definition of "the majority" is - in ascending order of granularity, men, white men, straight white men, straight white cissexual men, straight white cissexual Christian men, etc - it is a logical conclusion of the framework our society is based on that members of that majority enjoy mastery over popular culture and historiography. This means that the "default" perspective of your average cultural work - be it a novel, a film, or a video game - is that of a member of the majority.

Without in any way calling into question your intelligence or argumentative acumen, let me state that it is extraordinarily difficult for members of the majority to conceptualize what it is like to not enjoy this cultural mastery - whether this is inherent human nature or a by-product of our current society is for someone better versed in the humanities to decide. I'm not knowledgeable enough to define it beyond that, but it is an excellent chance to segue into...
I find this an incredibly dubious claim, for three reasons.

One, everyone has shades of it. By your reasoning even straight white cissexual Christian men can have some glimpse of what it's like to not be in the majority, provided they're of the wrong sect or lineage or preferences or history. Straight white cissexual men should have a bit more, and so on, so trying to say "look, these groups aren't positioned to understand this" is a sloppy generalization at best.

Two, even this minority majority of perfectly culturally representatives is going to experience works outside of that viewpoint, even if not terribly frequently.

Three, "you can't understand! How could you understand!" tends to be a complete bullshit argument.

So... if the argument goes that somebody in this master category is constantly surrounded by food they consider delicious, and thus can't fathom what it's like to not be surrounded by delicious food... I'd still say they can puzzle it out from their pretty much guaranteed knowledge of what not-tasty food is and is like. Maybe not to the exact extent as some less fortunate diners, but trying to claim it's simply beyond their comprehension strikes me as pretentious and, to be blunt, a cop-out.
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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2014, 06:09:56 am »

I don't think video game companies should have any such obligations other than to please their customers. Naturally the way they chose to depict their game worlds depends on the consumer target group they have in mind for that particular game, and the general stance of that group on diversity.
If that target group consists largely of horny heteresexual teenage males then it makes sense to sexualize female game characters at every corner. It's also fair to say this is a very large target group. While I'm personally disgusted by rampant sexualization, I don't see anything wrong with this as a way to please the customer (rather I see ever thing wrong with it with many gamers actually wanting it).

What I will say is adding a silly amount of diversity just for the sake of it to me seems every bit as bad as homogenizing gender roles of game characters. One thing I always dislike about bioware game for example is there always has to be some homosexual romance option. Nothing against it in itself, just that it has to be there. Turns the character as much into an object as the more common sexualizing does.


White cis heterosexual dudes opinions tend to be worthless on this matter since many of them repeatedly show a complete inability to grasp the level of alienation that minorities feel from mainstream stories (in video games or otherwise) and even their own depictions in them.

Ugh, stereotyping... Somewhat fitting in this discussion I suppose.
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TamerVirus

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2014, 06:48:37 am »

Not even bothering to read the wall of replies here, all I have to say is that I am a proponent of the freedom of expression. Does there need to be more diversity in the medium? Sure. But do I advocate shunting it into every piece of work? No. Let the artist work produce his work on his own terms and let it be judged on its own merits.
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