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Author Topic: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy  (Read 23534 times)

Sappho

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #165 on: May 27, 2014, 02:43:10 am »

Yes, things are slowly starting to change, and that's awesome. I'd like to see it move along a little faster. But more than that, I'd like people who grew up seeing themselves represented in games, getting to play characters they could easily relate to, to understand that this is not the way it is for the rest of us. It's not just about how games are now, but how they used to be. It's about empathy. I don't want to get into a philosophical discussion about race and skin color. Yes, it's true that it's a made-up concept, but it's one that people largely buy into, so it's relevant. In shooting games, you're usually shooting at Arabs (or other groups, including white people -- but you don't get to be an Arab protagonist). Black and Hispanic characters are usually either criminals or stereotypes. White people won't even be the majority in America pretty soon, but there's a hugely diverse range of "white" characters and a very small fraction of truly believable, non-stereotypical "non-white" ones.

My point is, basically, if you've never seen a lack of diversity in games, it's because you're already represented in games. I'm genuinely happy for you. That must be awesome. But it's important to make more diverse characters available so that other people can have that experience, too. You wouldn't like always having to play a girl. Let's make sure girls don't always have to play either a boy, or a girl that is essentially a sex symbol and nothing more. It may be true that being a sex symbol wouldn't bother men. I'm not a man, so I can't say for sure. But I can say for sure that it's a huge problem for women. It bothers us. A lot. Enough to keep me from playing a lot of games I might otherwise enjoy. In the past, even when given a choice, I've often preferred to just play a male character rather than the female in the skimpy outfit, because I just couldn't bear seeing "myself," my avatar on the screen, looking like that.

And even more than just allowing more people to see themselves in games, it's important for white guys to learn to empathize with other groups as well. Games are an amazing tool for teaching empathy. You're controlling the character. You are the protagonist. Girls are generally very easily able to slide into a male character for a while, because we've been doing it through books, flims, and games our whole lives. It would be great if boys could do the same with girls, rather than seeing them as something "other" as is so often the case. A literature professor once told me, "in stories, women are Women. But men are just people." It's true, and even more so in games. It doesn't have to be that way. Playing a character that is different than you teaches you to empathize with people like that character. It's a powerful tool, and it's been largely overlooked so far.

And maybe everyone on Bay12 is already aware of all this, fully empathetic and only discussing how quickly things need to change. If that's the case, great. I haven't read the whole thread (and I'll probably stop reading soon because, as I've said, this subject is very sensitive and sometimes painful for me). But I posted in here to offer my point of view, to share my experience, and to try to help others understand. That's my primary goal, in life in general. If you can get people to understand each other better, things will be better for everyone involved. There can never be universal understanding or perfect empathy or world peace or any of that nonsense, but we can certainly do better than we've been doing so far. In my magazine editing job, I push for inclusion of material from all genders and races and other backgrounds. When I write books and short stories, I try to include as many diverse characters as I can (and I always research first by talking to people from groups I'm not a part of to make sure I don't screw it up too badly). When I see a thread on diversity in games, I feel I ought to try to make my point, so here I am. Films and TV need a lot of work as well (although Frozen was a big step forward).

It seems that things are slowly changing. I'm very pleased about that. And I can't influence game developers directly. I don't have the money to do much voting with my wallet (although I do so when I'm able). But if I can get other people to see my point of view here, to recognize that it does matter, and the studios start to hear not just from women and "minorities" but also from the audience they've been marketing to, then things will change a LOT faster.

Also, Vector: I want to hug you. You have a way of wording things so much better than me and making the same points without writing novels. : D

Neonivek

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #166 on: May 27, 2014, 02:47:12 am »

Quote
if you've never seen a lack of diversity in games, it's because you're already represented in games.

And no one has stated that in this thread. The closest to this statement was when I said that there is more variety then you give credit for, or when people said that they believe diversity is actually progressing at an appropriate rate.
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Vector

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #167 on: May 27, 2014, 02:48:59 am »

.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:12:41 am by Vector »
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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scrdest

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #168 on: May 27, 2014, 02:50:20 am »

Why can't women have stories that are relatable to them and not so much to men

Why can't gay people have games that are relatable to them and not so much to straight people

You seem to think the point is "Every game needs to be relatable to all people." No. It means diversifying the market and including games that are going to be less automatically relatable to the straight white cis etc. market.

I don't feel that I'm damaged by a game in which the lead is clearly asexual, even if I am not part of that category. The idea that one would need to cater to a minority exclusively as in your aromantic asexual example is a strawman, and in fact exactly what Sappho is fighting against.

"So, you recommend removing all people of color, queer people, and women from your games in order to cater to the relatively small white male cis straight etc. demographic?"

They can. If you can you can sell them, which I think you probably can, go right ahead (not you as in 'you, Vector', generalized 'you'). It's not intended to be a jab - I'm completely fine with that.

I was responding to Sappho's argument, which posited that you currently have 100% representation, and you would hypothetically have 0%. Furthermore, a product makes the more money the more people it appeals to - so yes, it should optimally appeal to everyone, as far as possible. Niche appeal is a viable strategy, but overall you aim to reach the maximum possible appeal at the lowest possible cost.

I didn't claim anyone would need to cater to an exclusive minority - my point was that there is a minority whose preference regarding the depictions of relationships is directly exclusionary to the preferences of all other groups, so no matter what you do, you're going to make someone prefer it was different.

And once again, this was my exact point - you don't need a character to match your race, your sexuality, your beliefs, your preferences on housepets or anything else perfectly to be relatable, and again, this is a specific counterpoint to Sappho's argument.

E: I also probably should clarify a couple things. First, I absolutely don't mind having to play a female protagonist (that is not a pair of weather baloons tied to a skeleton). Second, I'm mostly arguing from a Devil's Advocate position. I tend to do that. Character flaw, I guess.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 02:54:17 am by scrdest »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #169 on: May 27, 2014, 02:52:05 am »

Anyway, short recap.

As far as I can see, nobody is arguing against diversity in videogames. You just go people in favor, and people saying it won't be economically viable to do so on a large scale.

Sadly, in the current economic system the last thing appears to be the case. So, let's abandon the issue of whether diversity is a problem (it is, we all agreed on that) and focus on how it could be solved.
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Neonivek

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #170 on: May 27, 2014, 02:56:13 am »

Quote
I apologize... I was referencing scrdest's argument and should have quoted directly.

Ohh ok, sorry. My mistake. :P

Also my newfound stance... is working out oddly well. I kind of regret all those years I wasted.
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Sappho

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #171 on: May 27, 2014, 03:01:23 am »

How about successful games that do this well?

-To the Moon (believable female characters, accurate autistic characters)
-Persona 4 (haven't played it because I don't have a console, but I've heard great things)
-Papo Y Yo

That's all I've got off the top of my head. There are plenty more, but I've got to get ready for work now. I'm sure others can add to the list.

If these games can do well, no reason why others can't as well. Which means commercially viable games that people other than white straight males can relate to.

Neonivek

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #172 on: May 27, 2014, 03:05:02 am »

Do what well exactly? I am not sure.

At least when it comes to Persona 4. While yeah it did a lot of things very well, but I am not sure what you can attribute to it as "progressive".

It has a strong cast but so did Persona 3 and Persona 2... and both of those did well.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:08:07 am by Neonivek »
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10ebbor10

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #173 on: May 27, 2014, 03:05:14 am »

If there are succesfull games that do well, then the problem is solved, isn't it?
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Vector

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #174 on: May 27, 2014, 03:12:56 am »

.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2018, 11:12:39 am by Vector »
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Neonivek

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #175 on: May 27, 2014, 03:15:11 am »

Well it depends on what you mean by "Do it well".

Do we mean games that handle it well AND are good games?

Because I can certainly think of a few games that do it well but as a game they are just garbage and unsuccessful.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:17:11 am by Neonivek »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #176 on: May 27, 2014, 03:17:18 am »

...cishet? Is this some new word?
* Shit lets turn bay12 into tumblr

I'm so damn glad I missed this shit, I'd be stuck in the thick of it wasting time trying to type pages on a shitty tablet.

Sappho

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #177 on: May 27, 2014, 03:17:33 am »

The problem is not solved if there are so few of them. There need to be more. Three games is not enough. There are more than three, but diverse games are still a rare exception. That's not okay. Women are the MAJORITY on the planet. There should be more fleshed-out female characters in games.

This thread feels like trap after trap and it's really unpleasant. The group who is currently in control says "things are fine."

If I say, no, they're not, there isn't enough diversity and non-white male players don't get to relate to the characters.

Then someone says, oh, so you're saying that there has to be non-white-male characters in every game? That we should be forced to play "minorities" all the time? Characters that the majority of people can't relate to?

Then I say, they can still relate to them. It is possible to relate to people who aren't just like you.

And then someone says, oh, so then you should have no problem relating to white male characters, so nothing needs to change.

Or someone says, it's not commercially viable to have diversity.

So I say, yes it is, look, it's been done.

So someone says, okay, so there's no problem then. There's already diversity. Nothing needs to change.

It keeps coming back to "there's no problem here, nothing needs to change." Yes, it does. If it didn't, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

And all of this is missing the fundamental point: There is no reason NOT to include diversity in games. Yes, it is commercially viable. Yes, people want it.

If white guys are saying they don't want to play other types of characters, they are recognizing the legitimacy of the claim that it's not fun to always have to play games with characters who are not like you. And at the same time, saying that people who aren't white guys don't have the right to relate to their characters.

There's no reason not to have diverse games. If you don't want to play as a girl, go play one of the thousands of other games where you can play as a guy, but don't say we shouldn't be making games where you can play a believable, non-sexualized female character, because that's a load of bullshit.

And now I'm going to be late for work.

Neonivek

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #178 on: May 27, 2014, 03:20:25 am »

Fine here is one for children as a successful game

-Freddi Fish (One of the longest series the company made)
-Nancy Drew Mysteries (a insanely long series)

A few more obscure ones from point and clicks
-Grey Matter
-Blackwell Prophesies
-Broken Sword
« Last Edit: May 27, 2014, 03:24:16 am by Neonivek »
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Sappho

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Re: Video Games and the Fun-Diversity Dichotomy
« Reply #179 on: May 27, 2014, 03:23:39 am »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suf0Jdt2Hpo&index=136&list=PLB9B0CA00461BB187

A look at The Walking Dead, which apparently is a great example for this stuff. More games like this, please.

Now to run out the door.
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