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[Devastator]

"Yes, as opposed to all the holes that the UWM seem to be perfectly happy ripping open. And at what point did I mention capitalism or specific planets? I answered your questions, nothing more, nothing less.

I care because I'd rather know why you care for the UWM, have I not addressed your concerns already? It is better for everyone to progress, even if it brings calamity closer as long as it gives us the tools to deal with it. Do you really think the tech bans will prevent that from happening? Our lives and memories are too short, one day, someone will slip up, even with bans in place - after all, there seem to be plenty of government organizations and corporate 'fat cats' that seem to be above those protocols. Do you really think that this disparity will save us? All it will do is delay possible disasters, and it doesn't even buy us any time, they make us less prepared because the few who are apparently above the law don't seem to be too happy to share the fruits of their research with everyone else.

Mark my words, those bans are a death warrant for our entire species."

"revolutionaries, dammit..."

"...okay, looks like I do need to tell you where I'm coming from.

Before I was in the HMRC, I was a crook.  I hurt people.  I ran some con games.  I did some jobs for some guys.  Sometimes I did some legal stuff, sometimes illegal stuff.

I had a life.  I had some friends I could be with, a place where I belonged.  It was.. good.  I did it for ten years.

I don't think a single person in the UWM, even today, has the slightest idea who I am, or for that matter, ever knew who I was.

I was sent up the river, so to speak.  I got arrested.  For murder.  I didn't kill the person, but it didn't matter.. I was in the wrong place at the wrong time, or I was convienent.  The cops, judges, whatever.. well they were corrupt, or incompetent, or just honest men believing what was in front of them, but in the end I was sent here.  If it weren't for the UWM, I'd like as not have been executed all the same.

Anyway, it doesn't matter anymore.  But I never had nothing to do with the UWM.


Now what you are talking about, well, that's called 'bullshit'.  I don't know if the tech bans will prevent another accident from happening.  I don't know if another accident will happen at all.  You, however, don't know one damn thing about it either.  The difference is that you are absolutely certain that your "reaserches" will somehow solve the problem, that you don't even know exists.

...It's like you survived a house fire, and are keeping yourself safe by burning down your house again so that it can't sneak up and take you by suprise.

The UWM did investigate this magic stuff.  They did it in remote areas, with limited access, like you do if you don't know what the hell you're dealing with.

What you guys are doing is looking at things, saying 'oh, this must be X', and then turning it into guns.

Here, let me describe the scenario.  Right now, before this started happening, you had a bunch of monkeys in a pen.  Say a hundred monkeys.  You know what a monkey is?  It's an animal.  A smart animal with hands, but still an animal.

There is one particular monkey in the pen.  That monkey has a gun, and represents the UWM.

What you're doing is looking at the gun, and saying that gun will kill all the monkeys, and clearly the solution is to make sure every monkey has it's own gun.

That's stupid.  I might think of your opinion differently, but you don't know one damn thing about the shit you're dealing with, other than how to use it as a gun, and how to give it to monkeys."


"Would you like to know why I tried to blow up this base?"

[Hapah]

Why not just a remote-controlled drone? Doesn't have to be complicated.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Same limitations as a braincase drone, but now with signal lag, possible loss of connection to jamming, active transmission of telemetry giving away its position to radar however it tries to hide, and need for certain infrastructure (satellites, retransmitters) to maintain good high-bandwidth signal beyond visual range. :\

[Xantalos]

Clearly the solution is to give every monkey a gun

That does rather sound like us.

[Devastator]

Still better than a jetpack that can't get beyond visual range at all.

I mean really, what's wrong with the jump rockets?  You can go from ground to orbit to ground to orbit to ground without running out of fuel.

If it's that important to have a piloted flying craft, why not build a proper aircraft, anyway?  I'm sure you could make a pretty nifty helicopter.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Still better than a jetpack that can't get beyond visual range at all.

I mean really, what's wrong with the jump rockets?  You can go from ground to orbit to ground to orbit to ground without running out of fuel.

If it's that important to have a piloted flying craft, why not build a proper aircraft, anyway?  I'm sure you could make a pretty nifty helicopter.

Hm.

* Sean Mirrsen looks at the description of MkIII suit.

13 | Mk III Suit

    Ammo: Rocket pods good for 20 kilometers.

That's not even good enough to get into orbit in KSP. It might be enough to get into space straight up on Q'baja, but then you're falling straight down, even with the improved fuel mixtures.

A piloted electric fan jetpack can get anywhere its pilot wants to go so long as it's inside the atmosphere. And it won't be seen by every enemy lookout with infrared binoculars and half a brain as it's doing so. And there is no need to refuel it regardless of how long you use it (or however long it takes for ER generators to wear out). Really, it's far more useful than you give it credit for.

[Devastator]

13 | Mk III Suit

    Ammo: Rocket pods good for 20 kilometers.

Hmm, thought the guy in the boxes mission got out of the atmosphere while carrying someone with his.

A piloted electric fan jetpack can get anywhere its pilot wants to go so long as it's inside the atmosphere. And it won't be seen by every enemy lookout with infrared binoculars and half a brain as it's doing so. And there is no need to refuel it regardless of how long you use it (or however long it takes for ER generators to wear out). Really, it's far more useful than you give it credit for.

Um, wouldn't it be kinda loud?  Like really loud?

Also, wouldn't it have to be frictionless to not produce heat?  Even if it was, you'd still be compressing air pretty hard.

I don't know.  It really does seem like you're using magic to make something nigh-useless into something 'okay.'  Why not just use an aircraft?

[Sean Mirrsen]

13 | Mk III Suit

    Ammo: Rocket pods good for 20 kilometers.

Hmm, thought the guy in the boxes mission got out of the atmosphere while carrying someone with his.

A piloted electric fan jetpack can get anywhere its pilot wants to go so long as it's inside the atmosphere. And it won't be seen by every enemy lookout with infrared binoculars and half a brain as it's doing so. And there is no need to refuel it regardless of how long you use it (or however long it takes for ER generators to wear out). Really, it's far more useful than you give it credit for.

Um, wouldn't it be kinda loud?  Like really loud?

Also, wouldn't it have to be frictionless to not produce heat?  Even if it was, you'd still be compressing air pretty hard.

I don't know.  It really does seem like you're using magic to make something nigh-useless into something 'okay.'  Why not just use an aircraft?

It doesn't produce "no" heat. Even the Mk1 suit produces heat by itself. But compared to the stellar-temperature plasma spewing out the back of a rocket, it's got the intensity of a dying standby LED. Toss a basic stealth cover over it, and it's stealthier than anything not using space magic to hide and/or propel itself. Or isn't a transparent weather balloon, I guess. And yeah sure, it's noisy. Really loud, even. But it's a "what the hell is that racket" level of noise, compared to the "oh sweet merciful Universe my ears" level of noise produced by the continuous thermobaric explosion that is a MkIII at full blast.

Also, frictionless magnetic bearings are a thing. The S-MAGJET concept uses entire turbojet engines suspended on magnetic bearings. I'm not saying they're used here, but just pointing out that it's possible, should it be needed.

As for aircraft... well yes, that is also a thing. But A) still requires a separate R&D project, B) will be completely useless to the Sword crew, and C) is a bit too usual, if you get what I mean. But more seriously, sure. Anton will get to designing an aerodyne as soon as he gets a request for one. ^_^

[Radio Controlled]

A drone as in an AI, or as in a wetware AI? How many of our fellow rebel allies will be willing to tear out their brains to install them in robots? If we're supplying the drones and the brains, won't it cut into our own Sod production - and why have Sods that are purpose-built drones when we can use one design that fits both robosods and regular humans? What if it's not needed as a mere weapons platform? It's a perfect platform for line-of-sight mind control ampage or other space magic shenanigans. It's got many uses as it is.

That all said, I don't mind making a drone as well. Indeed that was one of my other ideas, specifically for sensor drones around Hephaestus, it just got lost in all the other stuff happening at the time. Anything that's good for the US army can be good for the ARM as well. Problem is the same, a drone will require R&D time. The ducted fan jumpsuit Anton already has - or should have, at least.

It doesn't have to be wetware controlled. That was just an option. I mean, in RL we have drones that are largely self-controlled with on-board silicon computers, with the human controller mostly there to make decisions, and less actual flying and aiming. That's what I would go for here: self controlled with computers, with the option to let human controller make decisions when full autopilot isn't feasible (remember we have snowglobe data full of AI research).
Cause here's the thing, there is no good reason to have a humanoid suit for a job like this. The human form can do a lot of things well. Being aerodynamic or staying in the air for a long time is not one of them. And if you do want to make it use spess magic, a braincase is still an option. And how many of our allies are we gonna give unchecked access to spess magick? Basically, we'll need good quality control for whom we give amps, and if we're training amp users anyways, might as well add 'is willing to be put in a braincase' as a selection criterium.

Same limitations as a braincase drone, but now with signal lag, possible loss of connection to jamming, active transmission of telemetry giving away its position to radar however it tries to hide, and need for certain infrastructure (satellites, retransmitters) to maintain good high-bandwidth signal beyond visual range. :\

QEC solve all of these, and aren't too expensive according to pw. If still too expensive, fully computer controlled ought to work with ER tech.

As for aircraft... well yes, that is also a thing. But A) still requires a separate R&D project, B) will be completely useless to the Sword crew, and C) is a bit too usual, if you get what I mean. But more seriously, sure. Anton will get to designing an aerodyne as soon as he gets a request for one. ^_^

I don't think such a classic and rather easy design would take very long. Not as long as the time needed to get a suit working either way. I mean, how long did that take you? Did it need a science crew? And if it works well, I suspect the Sword crew might still have uses for it. More uses than for a propeller suit at least.



Finally, I propose we take this conversation to the Hep OOC, ok?

[Empiricist]

Charles begins to laugh, a quiet metallic chuckle at first, but then it begins to rapidly progress into hysterics.
"Oh if only you could see what I have seen... a while back, before this whole rebellion, a while back when we were just inmates on death row, I got sent on a mission, one for the interests of the UWM. I got to see the results of their arsenal.

Those amps and manipulators, the weapons the UWM developed, they aren't nearly as safe as you think they are. One razed away half a city. The other tore a hole in reality and nearly claimed the whole damn planet. These are what the UWM are fielding - dangerous, unstable prototypes that can kill entire planets upon failure. Do you really believe that an organization that creates them and then hands them to convicted criminals? Do you really think their little experiments are kept in nice safe boxes far away from civilization? Because if that's the case, then you may want to wonder why three of them are no longer in those boxes.

The Doctor. The Armory Master. They are not human, well, not any longer. I'd wager that however they were created violated the tech bans. I'd also wager that the UWM, the only organization that really has the technology to do so, was the one responsible. The same goes for the illusion that multiple people have seen. Either they weren't kept in a box, or the box didn't do shit to contain them.

At what point did I say that removing the grand phantasm they call a tech-ban also necessitates the removal of safety protocols? At what point did I say that the best way to ensure humanity's survival would be to go fuck an eldritch horror? At no point did I say that. Lifting the tech-bans simply removes the government monopoly on technology and accelerates the development rate, it does not automatically give everyone permission to prostitute themselves upon the alter of some nameless eldritch horror in their backyard.

I am not certain if research will prevent future calamities. But that matters little. Think about it, if every organization was allowed to perform it in any field they want and that will not save us, then if only one organization was able to research and thus was unable to cover as much material, then they are even less likely to save us. If our research cannot save us, then we as a species are doomed regardless of our choice. I'd rather take the greater chance of survival.

And yes, I don't know nearly as much as I'd like to. But I'm not the one planning this out, Steve is, you know, the supercomputer that the UWM has been relying to decide matter for them and helped them get rid of the Altered in the first place? He seems to have a lot more experience than the UWM leaders now, and a better track record as well.

As for why you tried that suicide bombing I believe you already told me about your motivations earlier."

[Devastator]

"You're making my point for me.  Steve's organization is entirely happy to hand these prototypes out to convicted criminals.  Whatever his plans are, they certainly don't require the billions of people like me, and the quicker he moves, the quicker people die."

"Also, forgive me for making the assumption that the HMRC operates anything but safely.  I must have missed the manipulator overloads that the UWM caused on this planet while defending it, and while trying to recapture it.  I do remember one of my teammates swallowing a pill and causing one.  I don't remember any UWM soldiers killing billions from an experimental disaster.. and I did go over the mission summaries of the ones before I was 'volunteered'.  It was all HMRC members causing horrible disaster, or in a few cases, unknown discoveries killing people, and UWM soldiers trying to help.  These tech bans don't seem to prevent new discoveries from being made.  They do, however, seem to mean that people like me don't have to worry if some lunatic gave their downstairs neighbor a gun."

"In the end, I need to look at it from the facts.  What actually happens?  Who actually did stuff?  What caused this disaster?  And well, neither you nor I know why this is happening, but your organization, of which you are so proud a member, is the one killing billions.  Even if there is some explanation for Steve's actions, that doesn't mean his methods are justified... and in the end, none are allowed to question his will or interfere with his plans."

At that, Leo taps the side of his head.

"Or has he taken yours out?"

[Sean Mirrsen]

((Okay, so. In the Heph OOC thread, starting from around here, we started tossing around some actual numbers and constructive estimates instead of usability concerns, and have bumped into a specific number we need a few questions answered about. The actual posts provide the details, but the actual number is what's important if you don't want to read all that.

Question: How large/heavy/expensive will a generator providing 200 kilowatts of power be? I recall there being different tech levels of generator, and some sort of new research being performed for better generators. On different ends of the scale - how heavy would a "cheap" generator of that power be (i.e. around 5 tokens' cost?), and how expensive would a "compact" generator of that power be (size of a medium backpack, no more than 50kg weight), if it is at all possible? For reference, 200 kilowatts is roughly the amount of power consumed by a small office building, 2 kilowatts is what you could get from a typical wall outlet. We've no idea how it translates to TPUs, even.

And if it's no trouble, just in case - the same for a 100 kilowatt generator?))

[syvarris]

Hephaestus thing:

1.You said the sci team will work on making a non-invasice Man-Machine Interface.  When will they be done?

Beetlesuit/battlesuit 2.0 design (minor improvements):

2.Try making some type of eyelid for the suit's cameras, so that it can easily protect from stuff like paint, and clean it off.

3.Add handles to the back of the battlesuit- enough for two people to ride on the back and fire over the top of the BS.  Make sure a few claymores are positioned to blow the handles off, and kill anyone who grabbed on without permission.

4.Add deployable wheels to the feet, sorta like heelys or something. 

5.Add a camera to the crotch, and any other blindspots.

6.Remove the backup capacitors in the suit, and replace them with bluraditite batteries of similar cost.  Hopefully, that should afford higher capacity and lower volume.

7.Remove most of the claymores, except for the ones positioned near the riding handles.

8.Change the location of the external button that opens the cockpit up, at least enough to confuse any sods who try and open the suit.

9.Ask scientists/other players for suggested names for this thing.


((Hey, Emp, are your conversations with Leo recorded?  Would Charles allow other Heph personnel to listen to the recordings, if they felt like it?))

[Radio Controlled]

9.Ask scientists/other players for suggested names for this thing.

((Well, in case people missed it, I re-propose something like 'combat hardsuit'. Unless you're just looking for new ideas, and not a vote, in which case, never mind!))

[Empiricist]

"I quite honestly doubt that Steve had any greater role in the HMRC's formation than the UWM itself. Those tech bans do nothing to prevent someone arming your neighbor, it is by definition a ban on technological development, not an armament-control law, if it was, then I'd doubt they would have created the UWM. You again forget that the HMRC previously served the UWM and performed duties for it, I cannot deny that atrocities have occurred but you cannot deny that those atrocities were expected and permitted. Tell me, did you hear about that UWM mission where we sent to kingdoms in order to intimidate and if necessary, innocent civilians? Because I certainly did.

The funny thing about your examples, is that they were regarding the HMRC when it was controlled by the UWM. After all, you were incarcerated right after our first mission past that fact, hence you know nothing of what our rebellion here is even doing. I'd be a lot more worried about my free will if your arguments held any weight against the ARM as opposed to it's state back when it was under the control of the UWM."