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[piecewise]

I may regret this, but I'm subscribed to this, and I think the hap guys might like it


http://materia.nl/channel/innovation/

[syvarris]

May I inquire what exactly the end purpose of this is? New nade type?

Spoiler: See, I actually wrote this this morning, but never posted it thanks to procrstination. (click to show/hide)

Yup.  The idea is that PSL shards are cheap, and have the useful trait of greatly expanding when they crystallize.  In theory, the pressure buildup from crystallization would cause the device to explode and spray shards.  Of course, the pressure might prevent it from crystallizing, or the case might fail in a way that causes the shards to have a directed blast (likely, and fixable), or the crystals might just flash to electricity without turning to a solid, etc.  I'm really just testing the basic concept.

...I'm not really sure why I went with 110% of a PSL shard's fluid, in hindsight.  I think it had something to do with the cost, but the best math I can find to support that is 30/1.1/4.5=6.06, which means you could get enough fluid for six grenades from one Testament mag.  If six cases would cost one token, that's three per token, which is kinda bad IMO.  Whether or not it's workable depends on what the cost of traditional frag grenades is, and how effective this version is.

This is kinda ruined by the heph turn... I'm not sure how it's possible for the solid version of the crystals to be denser than the liquid form given the shard/magazine dimensions, but, welp, it's certainly not the biggest physics offense in ER.  Maybe PW meant a propane tank larger than 20LB?  I have been assuming that, which is bad...

Also, just in case you're confused, I did intend those questions to be answer by PW, not you.  I just worded it poorly. >.<


@Piecewise

Thanks, that looks interesting.  Hopefully I'll find something in there that allows for a larger, cheaper, and more effective alien magic death penis.

*looks at bottom of page, sees 'human skin condom'*

Yup.  I'm sure I'll find something.

[Parisbre56]

@syvarris: Why not add a Shard Grenade Launcher attachment for the Shard Rifle?

[Radio Controlled]

I am willing to buy that thing of off you using the team fund for analysis and potential reverse engineering on Hephaestus.

Six tokens sounds like an entirely fair price. Be sure to let me know when you make up your mind (or when you get a counter proposal).


Best regards,

Miyamoto

[Sean Mirrsen]

Well, I've compared the MKIII to this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

See the big things on it's back? Like that. But a bit more bulbous. They're big things. So combining them on your back might make you look like a ninja turtle.

So, like the Ghostbusters' Slimepack, but with little rocket arms?

It should be, though it might slow you down. Big guns, big battery pack, lots of the exoskeleton's power used to keep them from weighing you down. Add more weight, like rockets and quantum backpacks filled with crap, you're gonna be slower.

((I'm not sure if you'll be able to add rockets on top of that. Well, besides rockets on the bottom, i.e. the rocket boots. Keep in mind, these things don't stack - no putting the rocket pack on alongside the lasers.))

Hmm...Some parts I could see that on, but large pieces, your double laser, you rocket pack, less so.

Not sure what this is a reply to... elaborate? My description meant that the assembly stand is mostly just a booth with robot arms holding a pair of pneumatic bolt-tighteners. The person in question would (one way or another) put the modules on, and then the machine would secure them.

Wait, how are we finalizing it if you just asked a question above?

((Yeah, there was a sort of a causality fault there. I meant something along the lines of "make them work as they are", but then probably had to return and edit in a question.))

This Mac is getting more expensive by the minute. And the council appears to be putting half a brick in a sock and making shifty glaces.  This rocket boot of yours; where does the fuel from it come from? How is exhaust directed? Are they gonna be walking on platform shoes to fit in the necessary parts?

((It's only going to be as expensive as it needs to be, isn't that the whole point?

And the Council's being kind of absent lately. Can Council members be re-elected?))

The boots, I'm probably going to have to draw up, but basically yes to the last one. The boot is basically a custom armor sandal with a single thruster in the sole, and four-ish vernier thrusters around the ankle. The fuel tank is basically wrapped around the outside of the leg in two connected primary segments (above and below the knee joint), making the whole array look like some exceedingly baggy cargo pants, or a very poorly designed floatation device. As I said, these fuel tanks should provide a fraction of the longevity of the actual rocket pods, so their size can be kept within reasonable proportions.

[syvarris]

*syvarris gurgles*

Okay, whoops, I had meant those questions to be answered by you, for Radio.  Not by Radio.  Bad wording on my part.  Here they are again:

1.My MBS has two layers of armor: one of the standard laser resistant lasers all battlesuits have, and one of the ballistic layer.  How does this translate in-game, compared to a standard battlesuit?

2.Because I think it will come up, how much armor does the mobility battlesuit have, in comparison to the standard one?

3.If I can, try to pull up a copy of the type of mining laser that was used on the sharkmist mission, that damaged Gilgamesh.  How powerful is it in comparison to a cutting laser?


And this is tinker stuff:

4.About PSL fluid being less dense than PSL crystals... Are you sure?  I remember calculating out the volume of a 20LB propane tank awhile ago, and, assuming the dimensions you've given for the shards in the past are correct, the volume of thirty PSL shards was significantly larger than the entire tank, metal included.  Since then I've been assuming the fluid is actually denser than the shards.  Where am I wrong/what retcons are now made?

5.How many traditional fragmentation grenades with an effective kill radius of fifteen meters could you get for one token, assuming we made them standard?  For comparison, one token currently gets five smoke bombs, or six paralysis gas canisters.


And this is completely different:

6.Pancaek wants money for his teleportation laser.  Miya was gonnna give him six tokens from the team fund, and it seems to me like we should really be the ones footing the bill.  However, there's obvious issues with Hephaestians paying the troopers whatever they want for nyartifacts, because stuff is effectively free here.  What is your opinion on this type of thing- should we have an allowance for buying stuff off of players?  No restraints, as long as we keep the pay 'reasonable'?

((I have more questions I urgently want to ask, but I'm already at three distinct sections, and that's probably pushing it. >.>))

[Sean Mirrsen]

((Ok, so this is probably terrible, but here's a sketch of what I think the rocket boots might be like:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Green is the fuel, red is the rockets, yellow the structure. And yes, these are more "rocket pants", I suppose, but the core component is still the boots, so... ))

[Parisbre56]

((Why not add micro-thrusters all over the body to make a sort of jump augmentation system? Would certainly be a lot easier to pilot than if it were just on the legs. Unless the exoskeleton takes over movement while a jump is being performed to make sure the user's legs stay in the correct position.))

[Devastator]

(The plumbing, the plumbing..)

[piecewise]

Well, I've compared the MKIII to this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

See the big things on it's back? Like that. But a bit more bulbous. They're big things. So combining them on your back might make you look like a ninja turtle.

So, like the Ghostbusters' Slimepack, but with little rocket arms?

It should be, though it might slow you down. Big guns, big battery pack, lots of the exoskeleton's power used to keep them from weighing you down. Add more weight, like rockets and quantum backpacks filled with crap, you're gonna be slower.

((I'm not sure if you'll be able to add rockets on top of that. Well, besides rockets on the bottom, i.e. the rocket boots. Keep in mind, these things don't stack - no putting the rocket pack on alongside the lasers.))

Hmm...Some parts I could see that on, but large pieces, your double laser, you rocket pack, less so.

Not sure what this is a reply to... elaborate? My description meant that the assembly stand is mostly just a booth with robot arms holding a pair of pneumatic bolt-tighteners. The person in question would (one way or another) put the modules on, and then the machine would secure them.

Wait, how are we finalizing it if you just asked a question above?

((Yeah, there was a sort of a causality fault there. I meant something along the lines of "make them work as they are", but then probably had to return and edit in a question.))

This Mac is getting more expensive by the minute. And the council appears to be putting half a brick in a sock and making shifty glaces.  This rocket boot of yours; where does the fuel from it come from? How is exhaust directed? Are they gonna be walking on platform shoes to fit in the necessary parts?

((It's only going to be as expensive as it needs to be, isn't that the whole point?

And the Council's being kind of absent lately. Can Council members be re-elected?))

The boots, I'm probably going to have to draw up, but basically yes to the last one. The boot is basically a custom armor sandal with a single thruster in the sole, and four-ish vernier thrusters around the ankle. The fuel tank is basically wrapped around the outside of the leg in two connected primary segments (above and below the knee joint), making the whole array look like some exceedingly baggy cargo pants, or a very poorly designed floatation device. As I said, these fuel tanks should provide a fraction of the longevity of the actual rocket pods, so their size can be kept within reasonable proportions.

Yeah, something like that.

My idea for this thing was it basically took the module and attached it for you. The problem I have is there's certain modules you really shouldn't be able to attach while wearing the suit. Mostly for the sake of I don't want people just snapping big modifying parts on and off with ease. It's not realistic and it's kinda over powered. I want major suit changes to basically only be able to happen in defined areas.

oh, don't worry. Council has been active recently, just not vocal. We even have a new member. Not that you can know who they are. Re-election implies they were elected at all.  We ain't no democracy boy! THIS IS A MILITARY DICTATOR SHIP!

Superfluous space left for comedic effect.

Alright. Points of contention or notice here:
1.How is it controlled? Rocket thrust powerful enough to lift a man is powerful enough to jerk his legs around and force unintentional and hilarious groin injuries. Trying to control it via just moving your legs is gonna be hard, even with the exoskeleton providing support.
2.This isn't a problem, it's a prediction: Someone is going to get these rocket pants of yours, and they are going to jump down from something or fall a bit too far, and thats going to damage a nozzle. And I will not tell them about that damaged nozzle until they next try to jump and end up cartwheeling through the air, a wall and 4 civilians, in that order.

*syvarris gurgles*

Okay, whoops, I had meant those questions to be answered by you, for Radio.  Not by Radio.  Bad wording on my part.  Here they are again:

1.My MBS has two layers of armor: one of the standard laser resistant lasers all battlesuits have, and one of the ballistic layer.  How does this translate in-game, compared to a standard battlesuit?

2.Because I think it will come up, how much armor does the mobility battlesuit have, in comparison to the standard one?

3.If I can, try to pull up a copy of the type of mining laser that was used on the sharkmist mission, that damaged Gilgamesh.  How powerful is it in comparison to a cutting laser?


And this is tinker stuff:

4.About PSL fluid being less dense than PSL crystals... Are you sure?  I remember calculating out the volume of a 20LB propane tank awhile ago, and, assuming the dimensions you've given for the shards in the past are correct, the volume of thirty PSL shards was significantly larger than the entire tank, metal included.  Since then I've been assuming the fluid is actually denser than the shards.  Where am I wrong/what retcons are now made?

5.How many traditional fragmentation grenades with an effective kill radius of fifteen meters could you get for one token, assuming we made them standard?  For comparison, one token currently gets five smoke bombs, or six paralysis gas canisters.


And this is completely different:

6.Pancaek wants money for his teleportation laser.  Miya was gonnna give him six tokens from the team fund, and it seems to me like we should really be the ones footing the bill.  However, there's obvious issues with Hephaestians paying the troopers whatever they want for nyartifacts, because stuff is effectively free here.  What is your opinion on this type of thing- should we have an allowance for buying stuff off of players?  No restraints, as long as we keep the pay 'reasonable'?

((I have more questions I urgently want to ask, but I'm already at three distinct sections, and that's probably pushing it. >.>))

It will be weaker then the norm, but still pretty damn resistant. You won't be able to tank a nuke or nothing, but you'll stand up to anything less then high powered military tech with nominal damage.

About half as much, I believe.

Mining lasers are about 2-3 times as powerful, and require the battery pack.

well, fluids in general are less dense then solids. The idea here is that the shard you make in the PSL is one form of the crystal, fairly fragile, big spaces between the molecules. But thats just one of the crystalline forms it can take. If you just pump energy through the thing with no support system to determine shape it will form a mass without much space inside the lattice. Hence, dense. Still fragile and explosive but it would require more force.  In fact, you could modify your existing weapon to fire fist sized lumps of the stuff, like a grenade launcher, that would detonate into lots of shards upon impact, assuming they hit something relatively hard.

Depends on their design, but you could probably get 3 or so.

I dunno. In my mind this was Miya paying for something and sending it to heph because he thought it required study, not so much Heph buying Nyars artifacts. I'm not really great with setting up a program to funnel those things to Heph as an official source of materials.

((Why not add micro-thrusters all over the body to make a sort of jump augmentation system? Would certainly be a lot easier to pilot than if it were just on the legs. Unless the exoskeleton takes over movement while a jump is being performed to make sure the user's legs stay in the correct position.))

Paris isn't on the council, but he should be.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Yeah, something like that.

Okay, so basically wearable then. Good. Make the tank streamlined and somewhat angular to make armoring it easier, give the arms themselves some minimal armor (primarily around the thrusters and the fuel lines), and finalize that as a module. ((I'll keep my notes here, but it's probably a good idea to add a "projects in progress" page on the Wiki to keep track of everything we're doing here on Heph.))

My idea for this thing was it basically took the module and attached it for you. The problem I have is there's certain modules you really shouldn't be able to attach while wearing the suit. Mostly for the sake of I don't want people just snapping big modifying parts on and off with ease. It's not realistic and it's kinda over powered. I want major suit changes to basically only be able to happen in defined areas.

Can't say I see the balance issues here, but okay. Let it be that way. It could be a good way to implement the re-equip cost, too - just make the stand coin- token-operated.
Actually, that was my first idea of the system, an automatic dispenser slash vending machine for modules. I changed it because I thought that an automatic machine to select and fit modules for you would be too open to abuse and... issues.

THIS IS A MILITARY DICTATOR SHIP!

((Hehe, that goes on my "memorable quotes" list. ))

Alright. Points of contention or notice here:
1.How is it controlled? Rocket thrust powerful enough to lift a man is powerful enough to jerk his legs around and force unintentional and hilarious groin injuries. Trying to control it via just moving your legs is gonna be hard, even with the exoskeleton providing support.

((Adding this here because it's relevant:))

((Why not add micro-thrusters all over the body to make a sort of jump augmentation system? Would certainly be a lot easier to pilot than if it were just on the legs. Unless the exoskeleton takes over movement while a jump is being performed to make sure the user's legs stay in the correct position.))

((Well, the reason the whole thing isn't dotted with micro-thrusters is basically the plumbing, as Devastator said. Part of the reason at least. With a lot of micro-verniers around the body, you basically add a layer of "blood vessels" to the exoskeleton's artificial muscle. Except where, say, Xenomorphs bleed spectacularly corrosive acid, your suit would spray spectacularly combustible rocket fuel, from almost any hit.

As to how the boots are controlled, they are actually more or less controlled by the verniers and the leg movements. The verniers provide RCS functions and help keep the user from spinning or tipping over due to imprecise leg movements. Both functions are controlled by the suit's computer, according to the usual flight control mechanics.))

2.This isn't a problem, it's a prediction: Someone is going to get these rocket pants of yours, and they are going to jump down from something or fall a bit too far, and thats going to damage a nozzle. And I will not tell them about that damaged nozzle until they next try to jump and end up cartwheeling through the air, a wall and 4 civilians, in that order.

((Hm, yeah. I'm sure it will be fun. It's just that the "foot thruster" is the most balanced solution - the thrust is directed upwards through the center of mass in the standing position.

I guess I can redesign it to have ankle thrusters, but then the default flight position with these will be the "invisible flying chair".))

[Parisbre56]

I do not believe that missions like that are within our jurisdiction. That kind of thing is what the Sword, ships like it, and the convicts-turned-soldiers aboard them are for. Our job is to supply them all, and produce new things to supply them with.

As for the drill, it's fairly limited utility but I'll keep it in mind. And I think that that application for the materials recovered from the planetoid were already fairly straightforward - we're planning on further research anyways.

I disagree with that. You are not solely responsible for the operation of the factories of Hephaestus. You can't expect a bunch of ships meant to mostly act for special missions to perform tasks out of their league. So the same way our ships cannot be tasked with capturing core worlds and destroying enemy fleets with any hope to survive, as such things are way above our league (not that we cannot spearhead such an operation, of course) we also cannot be bothered with simple scouting, tugging spaceships or certain suicide missions.

Furthermore, you are responsible for all operations in your surrounding area of space. You cannot expect the Sword and our other ships to be everywhere at once or to retreat to protect Hephaestus and its surrounding space. Nor can you expect us to be the only force expanding the influence of ARM. While our special operation ships are responsible for converting worlds to our cause through diplomacy and covert operations, it is your responsibility to do so as well. But while you lack the resources the Sword has and thus cannot take the same approach with that problem, you can still perform other operations to expand our influence with your own set of skills and resources. Diplomacy, Recruitment,Business deals, Scouting, Espionage and small or large scale military operations are well within your capabilities.

Plus, you have to admit that that thing is meant to be used by you. You are the only one with the resources to explore it and utilise it. So by all rights you should be the one to do it.

No offense, but I agree with Saint - something like that is best attempted back here, especially if we can figure out how to replicate it, or even just parts of it. I understand it's integrated itself into your battlesuit, which is a point of concern for me - what else it might be able to integrate into, but if you were to agree to send it here, I'm sure a temporary replacement battlesuit could be sent to you. As for you coming yourself, I have to decline - coming here is a rather large proposition, especially as even a temporary stay is quite long-term, and just to test one artifact because it's attached itself to your equipment isn't much to alleviate that.

Then what if I were to come as a soldier? Or a diplomat? You could get to test the weapon and I could get to help. I'm certain you need a commander for something. I could lead a squad or go on investigations or act as your representative to other worlds. Or I could simply work on organizing and training our defensive and offensive forces, setting up a scout/espionage network for the surrounding space. Whatever you need.

("You" above used as plural, meaning Hephaestus.)

[piecewise]

Yeah, something like that.

Okay, so basically wearable then. Good. Make the tank streamlined and somewhat angular to make armoring it easier, give the arms themselves some minimal armor (primarily around the thrusters and the fuel lines), and finalize that as a module. ((I'll keep my notes here, but it's probably a good idea to add a "projects in progress" page on the Wiki to keep track of everything we're doing here on Heph.))

My idea for this thing was it basically took the module and attached it for you. The problem I have is there's certain modules you really shouldn't be able to attach while wearing the suit. Mostly for the sake of I don't want people just snapping big modifying parts on and off with ease. It's not realistic and it's kinda over powered. I want major suit changes to basically only be able to happen in defined areas.

Can't say I see the balance issues here, but okay. Let it be that way. It could be a good way to implement the re-equip cost, too - just make the stand coin- token-operated.
Actually, that was my first idea of the system, an automatic dispenser slash vending machine for modules. I changed it because I thought that an automatic machine to select and fit modules for you would be too open to abuse and... issues.

THIS IS A MILITARY DICTATOR SHIP!

((Hehe, that goes on my "memorable quotes" list. ))

Alright. Points of contention or notice here:
1.How is it controlled? Rocket thrust powerful enough to lift a man is powerful enough to jerk his legs around and force unintentional and hilarious groin injuries. Trying to control it via just moving your legs is gonna be hard, even with the exoskeleton providing support.

((Adding this here because it's relevant:))

((Why not add micro-thrusters all over the body to make a sort of jump augmentation system? Would certainly be a lot easier to pilot than if it were just on the legs. Unless the exoskeleton takes over movement while a jump is being performed to make sure the user's legs stay in the correct position.))

((Well, the reason the whole thing isn't dotted with micro-thrusters is basically the plumbing, as Devastator said. Part of the reason at least. With a lot of micro-verniers around the body, you basically add a layer of "blood vessels" to the exoskeleton's artificial muscle. Except where, say, Xenomorphs bleed spectacularly corrosive acid, your suit would spray spectacularly combustible rocket fuel, from almost any hit.

As to how the boots are controlled, they are actually more or less controlled by the verniers and the leg movements. The verniers provide RCS functions and help keep the user from spinning or tipping over due to imprecise leg movements. Both functions are controlled by the suit's computer, according to the usual flight control mechanics.))

2.This isn't a problem, it's a prediction: Someone is going to get these rocket pants of yours, and they are going to jump down from something or fall a bit too far, and thats going to damage a nozzle. And I will not tell them about that damaged nozzle until they next try to jump and end up cartwheeling through the air, a wall and 4 civilians, in that order.

((Hm, yeah. I'm sure it will be fun. It's just that the "foot thruster" is the most balanced solution - the thrust is directed upwards through the center of mass in the standing position.

I guess I can redesign it to have ankle thrusters, but then the default flight position with these will be the "invisible flying chair".))

Ok.

Alright. We still have to work out how exactly all this rental stuff will work, but we can always set up a Booth in the Armory which would handle the attaching and such.

So what are the maximum angles and movements the computer will allow? Will it let someone go superman or are we basically talking short leaps, hovering, everything very safe and vertical.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Alright. We still have to work out how exactly all this rental stuff will work, but we can always set up a Booth in the Armory which would handle the attaching and such.

Yeah, we should get on that sometime. Does the Council have any input on this?

We have my original idea where there is no rent cost as such, but every module has a "tier" of a sort, and can only be equipped when a suitable tier of license is purchased. License is either downgraded or revoked if modules end up destroyed or lost, requiring its re-purchase. The suit is customizable with the use of an assembly stand that both dispenses and attaches/detaches the suit modules, costing one or two tokens per use. Modules are very hard to remove without it, tampering with the modules leads to revoked license.

We also have the system PW offhandedly proposed, where modules can be leased at half their regular token cost, with the option of full purchase. The assembly stand is still a requirement, costing a token or two per use, plus/minus the difference in lease cost between the modules selected and the modules already equipped. In this system fully purchased modules can be exchanged at no cost, and can be modified with no repercussions as long as they either remain compatible with the MACS, or aren't used with it again. Losing or destroying a module results in the user being "in debt" to the Armory, for the remaining half of the module's full cost, and cannot make any purchases there, MACS or otherwise, until that debt is paid off.

Which would be better? (or which would be easiest to modify to work best?)

So what are the maximum angles and movements the computer will allow? Will it let someone go superman or are we basically talking short leaps, hovering, everything very safe and vertical.

I'd say normally it'll keep the user safe. Jump, hover, change altitude, land. No acrobatics - that's the default automatic control. Kinda like the jumpboot upgrade for the MECs in XCOM:Enemy Within, if you played that, mostly for navigating the terrain. There should still be an "expert" option, for manual controls. For maneuvering in space, for instance, or if you really do need to fly away as quickly as possible. Can come with an extra Dex check or something, I don't know.

[Toaster]

For the MACS: in either system, can you outright purchase a module?  Do you have to pay to have it attached if you own it?