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Author Topic: Hephaestus No Longer Exists: Crater thread.  (Read 190302 times)

Parisbre56

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #555 on: September 06, 2014, 01:16:27 pm »

((Actually, it's not uncommon for piecewise to say no to things that would make sense in universe for balance or other gameplay reasons.
For example, when I tried to create an AUX or CON controlled sandbag, piecewise just said "No, I won't allow you to do that" even though it would make sense, since the sandbag control system is essentially a bunch of speakers
It's one of the reasons he's a good GM.))

syvarris

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #556 on: September 06, 2014, 02:00:43 pm »

((The difference is, PW can say 'No, there's something funky with the electronics/sand that makes that impossible'.  Evrything with the Testament was judged to be fine, and only afterward did he decide that it was too powerful.  Maybe it would be better to say that it was the onlt tinker weapon deemed so overpowered, that he had to outright retcon it to be less powerful.  The sand he could sniff a mile away.))

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #557 on: September 06, 2014, 02:23:07 pm »

@Sean

I really think three turns total for the overcharge is way too much, unless it's something like triple power.  You're losing three turns of regular shooting, so it's useless against groups, and against something big it's still useless if it's x2 or less.  The only use it would have is alpha strike capability, which needs you to be aware that you'll be fighting the turn before you fight.  That's... not really very common in ER.

I'd suggest no turn required to charge beforehand, and two turns of no-shoot afterwards.  Give it something huge, like 2.5x or 3x power.  Maybe more.  Sure, it's big, but you can't shoot again for that period, and you have to spend it all on one target.  Justify the lack of a charge time as something like the PSL's volley- you just hold down the trigger for three seconds or so and when it's ready, it just fires.  You'd have to hold the sights on a target for that period even if you were manually timing it.

Alternatively, having a turn of charge up, no turn of no-shoot afterwards, and 2.5x power would be good.  It makes it more open and versatile, but sacrifices overall capability.  It's slightly better than standard firing in most situations, but also carries a bigger risk- maybe a guy that you could've shot on the first turn shoots you on the second turn before you can fire.  And again, you can only really spend it on one target.

((I'd agree here, but PW and the Council are the ones having the final say in the balancing, and this is a big part of said balancing.

Personally, I understand the problem of having an overpowered weapon. Without some way to control its use, overcharge will end up being the default firing mode. If it's twice the power of the weapon and can be fired spontaneously with a turn's cooldown, then barring an encounter with a massive crowd you'll have little cause to use regular intensity. This was why I think two turns of cooldown between overcharges is acceptable. The question of whether or not the disadvantage of a turn's charge-up is enough to offset the power for the overcharge shot so as to not need a second cooldown turn, is pretty much the main question here.

@Radio:
Would the system with the turn of cooldown and turn of regular fire work better if it worked with a charge-up instead of a no-fire pause? I.e. you need to charge the weapon before firing, and you can't charge it again immediately after an overcharge. An arbitrary sort of limitation to overcharge fire rate. Charge, discharge, idle or keep firing, charge, discharge. So that at least you can open with an overcharge, and then keep firing. It keeps both the sequence (charge-discharge) and its relation to the no-charge pause (can't charge right after discharge) simple, with no heat tracked, no failures, and no multi-turn pauses that PW could lose track of.))
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #558 on: September 06, 2014, 05:28:43 pm »

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If you really think the charge-up is necessary to keep it balanced, then it better be worth at least two turns of firing in terms of power. Also, the cooldown afterwards would have to be only 1 turn. Charge, fire, wait, charge, fire, wait. One overcharge every 3 turns, you're committed to the sequence once you declare the charging (i.e. no skipping the firing bit), and there are no side-effects. It limits the tactical usefulness quite a bit, but if it's gotta be, let it be so.

I think that would be a good way to do it, yeah. Just trying to ensure here that a charged shot means something, otherwise people will just use that as it's regular firing mode and ignore standard fire. Though you seem to change your mind in the next post :v

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It'd still be neat to have the option to skip the cooldown if you really have to.))
Hey, if you desperately want it, ask pw if he feels like allowing it. But personally, I feel like it'll just complicate things. But if you really want it, maybe a system where charging up before it's ready has a 1 in 6 chance of melting the weapon/shooting backwards or something? Would mean just a single dice roll extra, and would be an appropriate risk.

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I really think three turns total for the overcharge is way too much, unless it's something like triple power.  You're losing three turns of regular shooting, so it's useless against groups, and against something big it's still useless if it's x2 or less.  The only use it would have is alpha strike capability, which needs you to be aware that you'll be fighting the turn before you fight.  That's... not really very common in ER.

I'm trying to avoid making the overcharge the default fire mode. Otherwise the idea of it being an overcharge (more power momentarily, but at a price) goes right out the window.

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The question of whether or not the disadvantage of a turn's charge-up is enough to offset the power for the overcharge shot so as to not need a second cooldown turn, is pretty much the main question here.

Nail, meet head. Ideally, we should take it out for a few missions to see how it works best, but that's not really an option for us. Balancing without checking how it works in game is really hard.

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Would the system with the turn of cooldown and turn of regular fire work better if it worked with a charge-up instead of a no-fire pause? I.e. you need to charge the weapon before firing, and you can't charge it again immediately after an overcharge. An arbitrary sort of limitation to overcharge fire rate. Charge, discharge, idle or keep firing, charge, discharge. So that at least you can open with an overcharge, and then keep firing. It keeps both the sequence (charge-discharge) and its relation to the no-charge pause (can't charge right after discharge) simple, with no heat tracked, no failures, and no multi-turn pauses that PW could lose track of.))

I personally feel that this is a bit too powerful, so to speak. I'd personally make it 'charge, shoot overcharged, no fire whatsoever, charge or shoot regular shot' so that one firing an overcharge really has to make it count (note that, if x2 or x2.5 power, then doubling the beam size means you have about the same amount of firepower, but condensed into a single shot).

Still, this is probably something we should either the rest of the council's opinions on or ask pw if we cannot come to a consensus.



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Awww.  Do I have to remove the first sentence?  I want to brag that it's the only Tinker weapon deemed so overpowered that Piecewise literally just had the stats rewritten without an in-game justification.

That's like bragging about being the person they invented the tribunal in The Hague for. Sure, you're the first, but that doesn't mean that's positive.

And honestly, there wasn't any real reason for pw to need it before, most people seemed to realize the need for balance themselves. But that project took so long, I think pw lost a clear picture of the whole (and since this is all fictional, all components and their properties and such can be explained away in whatever direction necessary a lot of the time).

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Oh well, I removed it anyways.  Do you have a suggestion for a semi-tongue in cheek opening description like almost every other armory weapon?

Perhaps something along the lines of 'Don't expect a single shard of this to rip through all opposition. Then again, don't expect a single shard.
Or maybe 'Despite what your wife may say, sometimes bigger isn't better'. Or '(delivering) death by a thousand cuts was never so painful (satisfying)'.

I'd try to focus on the weapon's in-game merits rather than OOC tomfoolery. Most Armory entries seem to be written from an IC perspective.

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Also, I'm keeping the SS- I know it's different to the other armory weapons, but it makes sense to me.  Like how a P90 is technically an FN P90, or how a MP5 is an H&K MP5, or how the (pistol) P90 is a Ruger P90, or how a Vector is a KRISS Vector, or how a 10/22 is a Ruger 10/22...
I like it better, okay?

I could 'pull rank' and say I want all armory entries to be uniform, but instead I'll just ask you still add the 'designed by' at the end. Keep the ss if you really want.
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Nikitian

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #559 on: September 06, 2014, 06:34:30 pm »

((On topic of Spekt/Raduga: Actually, why not go the other way? I mean, if we want to keep it from being 'default' mode, then by all means, but there are other ways than fiddling with fire rate or firepower.

Let's take a loot at the two predecessors of about the same 'weight category': laser rifle and gauss rifle.
Yes, laser rifle can fire empowered beam, but at the cost of burning through the battery and potentially melting the focusing chambers. Oh, and not everyone knows about the power knobs.
Yes, gauss rifle can fire overcharge shots, but in-game that takes several seconds of build-up IIRC (not an extra turn, just several seconds worth of not being able to shoot), is not widely known and can potentially be fired only a limited amount of times before the coils deform too much.

So, we could adapt it here:
  • Require an [Int] roll to learn about the overcharge mode IC (and possibly require having been told about it/having watched the damn video tape :P);
  • Make it able to fire overcharged shots for only so many times and perhaps even give it that small chance to backfire (like 1/36 or something) based on it having fired overcharged shots and not quite being cooled down
  • Say, while after an overcharge it is auto-shut for a turn (which, as a really hidden feature, you might bypass for a substantial chance of backfire, like Sean suggested), then you can wait another turn for it to cool down completely or fire with a slight chance of backfire (say, 1/12 for normal shot and 1/6 for overcharge).
  • Finally, nothing says 'it's not to be used slightly' if it can critically overheat or backfire if you roll a critical miss on your [Con] while firing overcharge shots.

That way, it would: a)come in play less regularly; b)happen more 'behind the GM screen' rather than 'out in the open' which means 'less complicated rules' for us to worry about while leaving it open to GM to go into detail as deep as he wants at that particular moment under those particular circumstances (and we'll never ever know about it ;D ) ))
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 06:36:51 pm by Nikitian »
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PyroDesu

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #560 on: September 06, 2014, 07:47:47 pm »

Anyways, I did say 'if Simus doesn't object' there- do you object to the weapon?  If not, then the gun goes through prototyping, and is presumably finished by the time the shuttle launches.  If so, it doesn't.  Simple enough.

Also, I asked above for Simus' permission to assign a construction crew to another fleshpit.  That okay?

Very much object. The use of a crew is okay though.

((Bolded so that PW registers it. And if you want to know why, consider that so far, every single thing that's going to be made is getting prototyped by going through a mission - even my MCP suit (by you guy's insistence). You're not circumventing that.))
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 07:52:27 pm by PyroDesu »
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syvarris

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #561 on: September 06, 2014, 09:24:38 pm »

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That's like bragging about being the person they invented the tribunal in The Hague for. Sure, you're the first, but that doesn't mean that's positive.

...Designing overpowered weapons in Tinker is comparable to committing war crimes?  Seriously?

I mean, someone might just hit upon a good idea, not intending to create something better than everything else, and accidentally make something OP.  How do you accidentally overdo doing something good in war, and end up committing a warcrime?  I'm pretty sure that's reserved for things you shouldn't be doing at all, and not things like 'killing the opponents too well'.

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And honestly, there wasn't any real reason for pw to need it before, most people seemed to realize the need for balance themselves. But that project took so long, I think pw lost a clear picture of the whole (and since this is all fictional, all components and their properties and such can be explained away in whatever direction necessary a lot of the time).

I disagree with this.  The part where the Testament was determined to be so effective took maybe three updates at most.  I think it was closer to two.  Arguably, PW might have just forgotten square/cube law, but he didn't object later any of the times I posted the large magazine.  Despite me asking about it.  And he could have just set the cost high, when I asked him about the cost.

...In fact, he was okay with the large magazine being added to the gun for free.  Suddenly I'm wondering whether PW had a big issue with it, or just other people.  Huh.

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Perhaps something along the lines of 'Don't expect a single shard of this to rip through all opposition. Then again, don't expect a single shard.
Or maybe 'Despite what your wife may say, sometimes bigger isn't better'. Or '(delivering) death by a thousand cuts was never so painful (satisfying)'.

Hmm.  I'm pretty sure that you're trying to convince me not to think the gun's that good.  I already think that- remember, you nerfed it when I thought it was fine?

On the off chance those are serious, I intentionally tried to write the description like a commercial; Most armory equipment seems to be bragging about it's capabilities.  Your middle suggestion is decent, but the other two are kinda... well, they look like they're really bad attempts to polish a turd.

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I could 'pull rank' and say I want all armory entries to be uniform, but instead I'll just ask you still add the 'designed by' at the end. Keep the ss if you really want.

...

Didn't we talk about this?  That threats are the very worst way to convince me of anything?  I'm quite bullheaded.  Go ahead, pull rank.


@Nik

I think you got something confused there.  IIRC, the Spektr costs 5- double that of the gauss and laser rifl, and weight category is a terrible method to use- typically, it's "five or under", and "Fifteen or under".


Anyways, I did say 'if Simus doesn't object' there- do you object to the weapon?  If not, then the gun goes through prototyping, and is presumably finished by the time the shuttle launches.  If so, it doesn't.  Simple enough.

Also, I asked above for Simus' permission to assign a construction crew to another fleshpit.  That okay?

Very much object. The use of a crew is okay though.

((Bolded so that PW registers it. And if you want to know why, consider that so far, every single thing that's going to be made is getting prototyped by going through a mission - even my MCP suit (by you guy's insistence). You're not circumventing that.))

What?  Oh, damn it.  I thought that we had decided 'prototypes' that were actually deployed in the field were a terrible idea.  I never meant for the MCP suit to wait until it had been proven decent- I honestly thought that it would be standard by the next mission.  When I said it should be prototyped, I meant that it should be tested in 'real life' rather than just VR.  Mostly for RP reasons, but also so that PW could spring any surprises on us there: 'Oh, it works well, but after a few minutes your expermienter starts reporting that he's starting to get woozy, and can't feel his hands.'.

I personally think that our old method of prototyping is really stupid and means nothing.  What if your MCP suit was given to someone on M14?  Would it have proven anything at all?  We could have done that mission nude, and had about the same result.  But, I guess if we can't retcon the prototyping of your MCP suit away, then we shouldn't skip the prototyping of the Testament either.  That is fair.

*sigh* damn it.  I really need to learn to stop making assumptions.  It keeps messing everything up.

Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #562 on: September 06, 2014, 10:39:35 pm »

((Syv, you're forgetting that the prototypes are still being sent to the Sword. Instead of being added to the Armory and waiting for people to buy it, you get a few people starting to use the gear from the get-go, and see its performance in the field right away. Being used against real threats, by real idiots, is very different from being test-fired (or test-fired upon) in controlled environments by scientists. It's true even out-of-universe, since you can never tell exactly how people will use the stuff you make, and it might end up being game-breaking or underpowered, so it's also a final chance at balancing.

Adding to the Armory can be just as easily done remotely.

Also, @Radio:
It seems we've finally reached a point of consensus-ish, then. It's a turn of charge-up before firing, and either a forced pause or a turn of restriction to regular fire afterwards. With maybe some of Nik's options a-la overriding the restriction immediately after firing at some risk. I say we leave the final decision between the two, and whether override can be allowed, to PW and the rest of the council.

In-universe, I'd see it as an undocumented sort of feature, listed way in the back of the instruction manual under "things to never try", inbetween "use as portable fluorography machine" and "make rave lighting at parties". The charge-up is handled by a thumb button that you hold down before pulling the trigger. The auto-limiter prevents pulling the trigger in such a situation when a weapon is hot, but not if you double-tap the button before holding it down. The weapon will make it perfectly clear to you that what you're doing is stupid, but won't prevent you from firing on the off chance you actually need it.

The reason I want this is partially because there's this one memorable scene from the novel series Salvation War (the second book, I think), where Archangel Uriel is attacking a city, and one of the defenders is a YAL-1 airborne laser (the one mounted on a Boeing). In order to kill Uriel before he can escape, YAL-1 fires in sequence several times, in violation of all safety codes, and does succeed in dealing the killing blow, but explodes immediately as it does so.))
« Last Edit: September 06, 2014, 11:14:35 pm by Sean Mirrsen »
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PyroDesu

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #563 on: September 07, 2014, 12:18:02 am »

((That, and you're not limited to a single prototype here - you can make 2 or 3 to send to different missions.))
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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #564 on: September 07, 2014, 12:25:50 am »

@Sean

Edit:Also, how much does overcharge multiply the power of your laser?

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #565 on: September 07, 2014, 12:56:01 am »

((That, and you're not limited to a single prototype here - you can make 2 or 3 to send to different missions.))
((Indeed. Speaking of which.))

PW, what numbers are we talking about for prototypes being sent? The MCP suits, the Testaments, the rifle/heavy FELs?

((I suspect some half-dozen MCP suits, and maybe 3 apiece of the weapons.))

@Sean

Edit:Also, how much does overcharge multiply the power of your laser?

((My original design called for a single pulse of about double power. The final design might be a little over that, but I think it won't make much of a difference since we're not using hitpoints here. The difference from a laser rifle is that as long as a cooldown happens, there is going to be no damage to the gun.

Also. The MCP suits can still be given out to everyone freely as soon as the initial batch proves working. The AM can produce everything as needed, and we're not going to build up a massive stockpile before the first shipment anyway. The weapons - how many people do you think will buy 4-, 5-, or 10-token weapons right now? More than the three or so you'll send for testing? The question is not whether the weapon will enter the Armory right now, the rules for prototyping have changed. We've already worked most kinks out of the designs, and we're sending them for testing, not approval. If there is any problem, the designs or their cost will be adjusted, and this will only impact the details of what ends up in the Armory.

Finally and, in my opinion, most importantly, this prevents a decoupling of in-universe logic from real-life logic. You don't lose much at all by allowing the prototype testing to happen, and it makes sense from an in-universe standpoint rather than an out-of-universe gaming standpoint. We're still in a roleplaying game, here. ;) ))
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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #566 on: September 07, 2014, 08:40:46 am »

((By the way, it's the 7th already. Going by the Wiki, the expanded fleshpit and the mass driver ramp should now be completed.))
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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #567 on: September 07, 2014, 02:38:55 pm »

((About the FEL:

I still think double power is too little.  If a person can shoot at his target for both turns, then you'll have the same effect as the overcharge, just somewhat sooner.  If you have a bunch of soft targets, like a bunch of humans, then the overcharge is actually weaker.  It's especially bad if you have a turn of no-shoot afterward, because then you're trading three turns of regular fire for one turn of doubled fire.  The only conceivable situations that it's useful for are when you can choose when to begin the engagement, and the possible case of something which is resistant to standard lasers, but doubled lasers are too much.

About Prototyping:

I did say that, depending on how the prototyping would work, it'd actually end up better for the Testament?  Especially if there's three prototypes, that's probably more guns in circulation than would even be bought in the next few months.

More important, IMO, is that the MCP suits don't become standard.  They're flatly better than the MK.I, so giving anyone who still wears one an MCP would be great.  And I don't think we're supposed to go 'Oh, the AM can make new clothes for everybody.  She already makes lots of stuff anyways, she won't mind.'- Isn't that half the reason we captured Hephaestus?  To produce things, rather than telling the AM to?  Another important thing is that sods won't get the new stuff.  I think they'd benefit the most from it, really.

As far as balancing, I already made a big post about why prototyping on missions is terrible for balancing; It's based more on luck and perception than any actual fact.

And lastly, as for it making sense in-universe... Sure, why not.  I dislike when roleplay gets in the way of gameplay- like with the jump points, we abstracted it away so that people could still communicate with us, despite the fact that they should only have had a day or so.  I could argue more, but I'm starting to realize that this is supremely pointless.  I'm the only one who has my opinion, so I'm probably the wrong one.  *sigh*

About the wiki:

Yeah, I've been updating it every other day.  Not the best, because I'm on odd days and our projects are on even, but... eh.  It doesn't really matter, because PW staggers the Heph turns.))

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #568 on: September 07, 2014, 05:00:14 pm »

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...Designing overpowered weapons in Tinker is comparable to committing war crimes?  Seriously?

Certainly not. Syv, meet Ms. Hyperbole For Making A Point Or In Humorous Intent. You should ask her for a dance, you might like her.

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I disagree with this.  The part where the Testament was determined to be so effective took maybe three updates at most.  I think it was closer to two.  Arguably, PW might have just forgotten square/cube law, but he didn't object later any of the times I posted the large magazine.  Despite me asking about it.  And he could have just set the cost high, when I asked him about the cost.

I'm talking not about the weapon, but about the way you went about it, the designing process. For example:

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Hmm.  Well, I was originally aiming for just a simple primary assault rifle that would be better than a gauss rifle, and would have enough ammo that extra mags wouldn't be a problem.  It was gonna be semi-automatic, with five round volley fire or something.

But then I realized that it'd have so much ammo that it didn't matter, so I decided to shift it into a more LSW role.  As it is now, your description is pretty accurate- fast firing, not as effective as something like a crystalline projector or rocket rifle, but way better ammo economy.  As far as disadvantages vs. advantages... Hmm, cost is one of the biggest disadvantages.  It does less damage than a gauss rifle, but has better AP ability.  The biggest would probably be inaccuracy/lack of damage at long range?  It has a high rate of automatic fire, and volley fire, so short range capability should be pretty good...

This was a great post, very insightful and helpful in guiding the tinkering (or, in this case, balancing) process. Why didn't you post something like this at the start of your project, to help pw keep track of what it was shaping up to? Sure, it might be obvious to you how a project is shaping up to be, but for pw it's just a series of abstract technical questions or conversions every other day over the course of weeks. He's just a man, and that is just 1 post in the sea of posts that entails updating 4 or so threads daily. I'm not surprised he lost track of the bigger picture with this weapon honestly (he himself said that any one answer depend on how he feels about something at the moment itself).

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Hmm.  I'm pretty sure that you're trying to convince me not to think the gun's that good.  I already think that- remember, you nerfed it when I thought it was fine?

What? What the what? Hell no, where the hell did that come from? My honest opinion, to ensure we're on the same page here: it seems like a great weapon, downsizing the PSL was a good idea (I wanted to do something similar to the plasma launcher before, but you beat me to the punch) and it carries bigger-than-average bang for it's buck.

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On the off chance those are serious, I intentionally tried to write the description like a commercial; Most armory equipment seems to be bragging about it's capabilities.  Your middle suggestion is decent, but the other two are kinda... well, they look like they're really bad attempts to polish a turd.

Sure, but they do it IC'ly, without referring to god or nerfing. That makes no sense. Saying 'This weapon carries great value for it's price' would be fine, for example.

The first one is correct, no? 1 shard is weak, but you can fire 9 at a time and still have twice the turns of shooting compared to a gauss rifle. The last one... eh, just a random idea. I could try again, or you could try to come up with something.

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Didn't we talk about this?  That threats are the very worst way to convince me of anything?  I'm quite bullheaded.  Go ahead, pull rank.

That just means I'll add 'designed by Steve Saint' to the Testament Armory myself after it's added really, that's it. I've been rather lenient when it comes to the wiki (not demanding 100% seriousness for example, this isn't wikipedia) but there are certain things I find important. Having a uniform look on things where possible is one of them. All the other player-designed weapons have their designer added, so it makes sense to do that here as well. Besides, why would you be against it? It's a good weapon and you seem proud of it. Why not ensure people know who designed it? I suggested to remove ss because redundancy, but if you like it, sure, keep it.



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It seems we've finally reached a point of consensus-ish, then. It's a turn of charge-up before firing, and either a forced pause or a turn of restriction to regular fire afterwards. With maybe some of Nik's options a-la overriding the restriction immediately after firing at some risk. I say we leave the final decision between the two, and whether override can be allowed, to PW and the rest of the council.

Very well then. Let's see what pw has to say.

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prototyping.

I'm torn. On the one hand syv raises some good points on the situational nature of testing on missions. On the other hand, no testing whatsoever does seem like asking to discover annoying quirks or unbalancedness at the worst possible moment. Perhaps we can presume that in the testing phase, we send a bunch of them along with sods we ship out to other planets to 'test them'. That way, if there's anything wrong with it that pw didn't want to state outright, he can do so with an IC justification.

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I still think double power is too little.  If a person can shoot at his target for both turns, then you'll have the same effect as the overcharge, just somewhat sooner.

As far as I'm aware, the idea behind the overcharge is to to take down hardened targets, no? Since holding regular fire steady on the exact same spot is hard, and requires multiple rolls. Or maybe as a high power 'alpha strike' option (such as during springing an ambush).
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 05:50:49 pm by Radio Controlled »
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syvarris

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Re: Hephaestus Techland: Big Brother is Watching
« Reply #569 on: September 07, 2014, 09:02:06 pm »

Spoiler: Reply to Radio (click to show/hide)

I decided to Spoiler this because we now have pages full of lots and lots of discussion text, and I know some people really prefer to avoid that.  I feel kinda bad for not spoilering all my ranting earlier. ._.
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