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[syvarris]

((GWG, before you ask, all cameras surrounding the area were taken offline with the power junction.  It is utterly impossible to get a view inside without sending something.

Pyro, I think GWG's saying that if we review the footage the cameras got directly before being destroyed, we could get info about what destroyed them.  If no cameras got any footage, then that means the power was probably destroyed first, in which case we know the damage was targeted and intentional.

Additionally, GWG has a point about the connection.  The cameras were probably transmitting through a cable or something.  Remote radio signals could be blocked by all the metal and stone down there.

...Holy crap, I, of all people, am attempting to defuse a GWG argument.  What's next, GWG admitting he's wrong about something?))

[Sean Mirrsen]

Additionally, GWG has a point about the connection.  The cameras were probably transmitting through a cable or something.  Remote radio signals could be blocked by all the metal and stone down there.

((That was also my point, actually. It doesn't matter that communications work inside underground facilities - the facilities themselves are likely inaccessible, and the only way to get down there is from the surface, through the network of tunnels the fleshworm had dug for itself. My cellphone tends to die out on the first basement floor of our shopping center because of all the concrete. Military radio is more powerful, but even penetrating radiation can't skip through concrete indefinitely. And I got the impression that the damaged area, is way, way down there.))

[PyroDesu]

Additionally, GWG has a point about the connection.  The cameras were probably transmitting through a cable or something.  Remote radio signals could be blocked by all the metal and stone down there.

((That was also my point, actually. It doesn't matter that communications work inside underground facilities - the facilities themselves are likely inaccessible, and the only way to get down there is from the surface, through the network of tunnels the fleshworm had dug for itself. My cellphone tends to die out on the first basement floor of our shopping centre because of all the concrete. Military radio is more powerful, but even penetrating radiation can't skip through concrete indefinitely. And I got the impression that the damaged area, is way, way down there.))

((If we go with this, then any kind of drone makes zero sense - you'd lose contact basically immediately. You'd have to give them an entire AI suite (like a low-grade Stevebot) if you wanted any semblance of usefulness. Or a drone with a QEC system, which is known to be bulky, but not entirely impossible. I was actually planning on taking, first the scout eyes, then whatever kind of drone or whatever we come up with, close to the area in question personally, probably asking Saint to come with me. This is assuming the facilities are accessable, which they should be - how else do we get resources out and bots in already (keep in mind, Aresteve has said the normal repair bots can't fix it - and repair bots themselves would need to be supplied and occasionally replaced). I think the facilities are accessible, probably in a similar fashion to the mines in the infested colony we went through on a mission - airlock-sealed (probably multiple times, as you go deeper, from pressure issues) from the normal facilities because it's not exactly all that liveable down there. This is assuming that, while communications are wired throughout the complex, there are not also wireless points relayed through - at least in the normally accessible areas. For normally inaccessible areas, we might just have to set up a wireless point routed through the wired communications if it did not already exist (it might - that would allow for simplified layouts that would be easier to lay as the deep facilities get deeper, you simply lay cabled communications with wireless relays along them, and let cameras and such connect through them. As well, the presence of repair bots makes that more likely - unless you think they're constantly tethered to a wired network?).))

[Sean Mirrsen]

((Repair bots work from within the structure, which likely has relay points. I was planning to use relays as well, but each relay increases lag and you always run the risk of suddenly going out of range - which is where the drone OS kicks in and allows the unit to maintain itself while you use other units to extend your range.

I'm going on the worst-case assumption that the facility can't be realistically accessed from within. If raw materials and supplies can be shunted between here and there, it doesn't mean that there is any people-accommodating access. It also makes sense for remote, sealed off facilities to have their own assembly lines for maintenance drones. So unless you want to take a ride on a screw conveyor or whatever equivalent Hephaestus uses for vertical transport of materials, I suspect we're going to have to tackle the problem from the outside. Which means Remote-Sod Relay Spelunking.))

[PyroDesu]

((You know, what you're saying would make perfect sense... if it were the mining systems themselves where the issue is. As far as I know, that's not the case - the issue lies in the areas where the mining systems have already excavated - which, as far as I would think, are pretty much a large network of relatively spacious tunnels (perhaps not even that - depending on how the mining operations work, it could look like a relatively developed facility - although with concrete or whatever walls/supports/what-have-you) with systems like power, communications, and transport going through them.

Of course, you know the only way to find out which of us is correct (if either of us are correct) is to ask the GM, yes?))

[Sean Mirrsen]

((You know, what you're saying would make perfect sense... if it were the mining systems themselves where the issue is. As far as I know, that's not the case - the issue lies in the areas where the mining systems have already excavated - which, as far as I would think, are pretty much a large network of relatively spacious tunnels (perhaps not even that - depending on how the mining operations work, it could look like a relatively developed facility - although with concrete or whatever walls/supports/what-have-you) with systems like power, communications, and transport going through them.

Of course, you know the only way to find out which of us is correct (if either of us are correct) is to ask the GM, yes?))

((Yep. I already asked Aresteve whether the damaged area is accessible from within the facility, and Simus is about to scout out the area with drones, so I'd say we're all set to find out. ^_^))

[GreatWyrmGold]

((You're acting like they were destroyed a long time ago. They are being destroyed now. Or being taken offline - I believe there was mention of a power junction being destroyed or damaged. Either way, the result is the same - and no, there wouldn't be record, since it's happening in the present.))

((Hm. My mistake on the first part.
But yes, there should still be records of them being destroyed, because you have to destroy them before they stop sending information, yes?))

I think it's fair to say that none of us really understands what's going on. piecewise, could you give a detailed description of what we know of the issue with Aresteve's answer to Sean?

[Sean Mirrsen]

((You're acting like they were destroyed a long time ago. They are being destroyed now. Or being taken offline - I believe there was mention of a power junction being destroyed or damaged. Either way, the result is the same - and no, there wouldn't be record, since it's happening in the present.))

((Hm. My mistake on the first part.
But yes, there should still be records of them being destroyed, because you have to destroy them before they stop sending information, yes?))

I think it's fair to say that none of us really understands what's going on. piecewise, could you give a detailed description of what we know of the issue with Aresteve's answer to Sean?

((Sean's gone off with the Sword. Aresteve will be answering Anton.

Also, Action post edited with a question, repeated here. Will we be able to do abstracted long-term research? As in, specific goals but nonspecific means? For instance, if I were to try and develop a new kind of high-strength synthetic myomer, to replace synthflesh for use in large bipedal mecha (i.e. a piloted equivalent of the Avatar, kinda like a Gundam), would I be able to do so? Since there isn't really any real-world science to base it on, can I just build a lab and say I try to do it, and just treknobabble the working principles later?))

[GreatWyrmGold]

((Oh, you know what I meant. I just couldn't remember Anton's name.))

[syvarris]

((For instance, if I were to try and develop a new kind of high-strength synthetic myomer, to replace synthflesh for use in large bipedal mecha (i.e. a piloted equivalent of the Avatar, kinda like a Gundam), would I be able to do so? Since there isn't really any real-world science to base it on, can I just build a lab and say I try to do it, and just treknobabble the working principles later?))

((I understand that this is just an example, but it is a terrible idea.  Synthflesh is the best material you could ask for in mecha, because it's magic and flips off square/cube law.  The more synthflesh you have in an organism, the stronger and more magic it gets, to the point that a titan breaks physical laws.))

[Sean Mirrsen]

((For instance, if I were to try and develop a new kind of high-strength synthetic myomer, to replace synthflesh for use in large bipedal mecha (i.e. a piloted equivalent of the Avatar, kinda like a Gundam), would I be able to do so? Since there isn't really any real-world science to base it on, can I just build a lab and say I try to do it, and just treknobabble the working principles later?))

((I understand that this is just an example, but it is a terrible idea.  Synthflesh is the best material you could ask for in mecha, because it's magic and flips off square/cube law.  The more synthflesh you have in an organism, the stronger and more magic it gets, to the point that a titan breaks physical laws.))

((And has a mind of its own that grows with size and is incredibly unstable, and incredibly expensive to the point where healing the damage is better than replacing damaged parts. Anton prefers simple machines to exotic parabiological exudate of slightly eldritch origin.))

[syvarris]

And has a mind of its own that grows with size and is incredibly unstable,

Not really.  With the proper inhibitors, it's pretty dang stable.  Miyamoto has control over his body, and his is pretty powerful.   After all, he UWM has had centuries to refine and perfect those systems.

and incredibly expensive to the point where healing the damage is better than replacing damaged parts.

It is an organism.  Think about what you just said- is healing a human arm easier than growing a whole new arm, and attaching that one?

Beyond that, it's way harder to damage in the first place.  You can shoot an avatar with a 20mm anti-tank rifle, and the round will bounce off or barely penetrate.  A normal synth body will have a hole blown in it.  A titan wouldn't even have a mark on it.

Lastly, Synthflesh is highly expensive, sure.  What makes you think a myomer many times stronger than titanium is going to be cheap?

Anton prefers simple machines to exotic parabiological exudate of slightly eldritch origin.

And yet, exotic parabiological... exudate, is our biggest advantage over the UWM.  Actually, no, stuff that is more volatile and dangerous, and less well understood, is our biggest advantage.


Beyond all that, mecha, if you go by simple real-world physics, is hilariously impractical, cost-inefficient, and overall useless.

[Sean Mirrsen]

And has a mind of its own that grows with size and is incredibly unstable,

Not really.  With the proper inhibitors, it's pretty dang stable.  Miyamoto has control over his body, and his is pretty powerful.   After all, he UWM has had centuries to refine and perfect those systems.

((And should something fail, what will happen? Also, the UWM was mostly lounging on its laurels for all these centuries. They already had Avatars during the Altered Wars, did they not?))

It is an organism.  Think about what you just said- is healing a human arm easier than growing a whole new arm, and attaching that one?

((I think about half the current roster of the ARM provides a decent answer to that question. Why wait days for biological regeneration when a synthoid replacement can be grafted on in minutes? Machines are harder to service, but easier to repair.))

Beyond that, it's way harder to damage in the first place.  You can shoot an avatar with a 20mm anti-tank rifle, and the round will bounce off or barely penetrate.  A normal synth body will have a hole blown in it.  A titan wouldn't even have a mark on it.

((For the record, the Avatar is covered head to toe in armor, and has a flexible armor cloak on top of that. A synthflesh body would be a better example, and 20mm anti-tank is about on par with the gauss rifles we have in the Armory.

The idea is the same with the mech - have it armored so that it can tank near anything, but if it does get damaged its repair is a matter of replacing the lost limb and recycling the leftovers for the production of a new one.))

Lastly, Synthflesh is highly expensive, sure.  What makes you think a myomer many times stronger than titanium is going to be cheap?

((Because, presumably, it won't have to be grown, and will use conventional resources in its creation.))

And yet, exotic parabiological... exudate, is our biggest advantage over the UWM.  Actually, no, stuff that is more volatile and dangerous, and less well understood, is our biggest advantage.

((No. ARM's biggest advantage is the element of surprise, and the willingness and drive to develop and acquire new technologies and immediately put them to use in the fight. Things we can't understand and control don't have much chance of being put into mass production, and we won't win this war on super prototypes alone.))

Beyond all that, mecha, if you go by simple real-world physics, is hilariously impractical, cost-inefficient, and overall useless.

((I empathically disagree on that point, on the grounds that suitable technologies have not yet been created in the real-world. Energy-efficient and highly durable myomers would make mecha viable battlefield units, being one of the few technologies that can not directly apply to any form of combat vehicle but an articulated biomorphic machine, unless you propose a return of the catapult.))

[syvarris]

Spoiler: Arguments With Mirrsen, Volume 1 (click to show/hide)

((And should something fail, what will happen? Also, the UWM was mostly lounging on its laurels for all these centuries. They already had Avatars during the Altered Wars, did they not?))

((If something fails, bad things happen.  But has Miyamoto ever had even a single one of the several redundant inhibitors fail?  IIRC, there's at least six of them. 

They did, but they have been improving things.  Avatar pilots used to have all their limbs chopped off, and now they only need their legs chopped.  A better example is that our armory has been expanding as we have captured new and useful alien tech, like the HEP or crystalline projector.))

((I think about half the current roster of the ARM provides a decent answer to that question. Why wait days for biological regeneration when a synthoid replacement can be grafted on in minutes? Machines are harder to service, but easier to repair.))

((Because it's cheaper?  The robobodies people have gotten are very efficient and weakly built; they're a dime a dozen.  They could be vastly improved if you only used the stronger materials that have already been invented.  But they wouldn't be if you used a highly expensive and advanced material to build them.))

((For the record, the Avatar is covered head to toe in armor, and has a flexible armor cloak on top of that. A synthflesh body would be a better example, and 20mm anti-tank is about on par with the gauss rifles we have in the Armory.))

((I'll admit the first point does conflict with what PW has said elsewhere.  And the second... that's why I said "20mm anti-tank".  Most people are just unaware how overpowered gauss weapons are.))

((The idea is the same with the mech - have it armored so that it can tank near anything, but if it does get damaged its repair is a matter of replacing the lost limb and recycling the leftovers for the production of a new one.))

((And I guarantee you, it is either going to be massively more expensive than an avatar, because you're building it out of 25% mythril alloy, or it will lose in a head-to-head fight with one.))

((Because, presumably, it won't have to be grown, and will use conventional resources in its creation.))

((Assuming, of course, that PW allows you to make a conventional resource that is several times as strong as titanium and is cheap.  The UWM has created massively strong metals, and massively cheap metals, yet they still use synthflesh for their mecha-equivalents.))

((No. ARM's biggest advantage is the element of surprise, and the willingness and drive to develop and acquire new technologies and immediately put them to use in the fight. Things we can't understand and control don't have much chance of being put into mass production, and we won't win this war on super prototypes alone.))

((Yes, the element of surprise, and the fact we can fight a guerilla war, are two very important things.  But they aren't going to help us win in straight battles.  And those technologies that we're willing to use, that the UWM isn't?  Space magic.  Like synthflesh.  And synthflesh is already a hell of a lot better understood than anything else we have.

Face it.  We're either going to use stuff that's no better understood than synthflesh, or we're going to be stuck using perfectly conventional stuff, which is wholly inferior to what the UWM already has.))

((I empathically disagree on that point, on the grounds that suitable technologies have not yet been created in the real-world. Energy-efficient and highly durable myomers would make mecha viable battlefield units, being one of the few technologies that can not directly apply to any form of combat vehicle but an articulated biomorphic machine, unless you propose a return of the catapult.))

((Correct me if I'm wrong- the two important things for a mecha material are strength, and low weight, yes?  Aren't those also important for, say, light aircraft armor?

Beyond that, synthflesh has an advantage that make it uniquely suited to mecha (probably due to it's status as phlebotinum specifically designed to allow mecha that are useful).  It gets stronger, per pound, the bigger it gets.  Few things below Titan size can even actually even damage a titan, while if you had a material that, at titan size, would be as strong as a titan, you could make an MKIII suit that beats battlesuits in boxing matches.

Lastly, synthflesh has one more advantage, that uses this game's most powerful broken aspect- it is intelligent, and makes space magic more powerful.  Miyamoto, at avatar size, can launch a space magic heatblade capable of chopping spaceships in half.  Even if you made a material that was twice as strong as synthflesh at avatar size, the pilot would be entirely incapable of beating an avatar with a trained amp or manip-using pilot.

I am going to hit something if you say "but overloads ".  Only idiots cause overloads at this point.  We don't give idiots mecha.))

[Radio Controlled]

No time to join the discussion in earnest unfortunately, so I'm just goin to leave this link to a statue of a life-size Gundam. Because people tend to forget how dang big those are.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/yahooeditorspicks/galleries/72157629672277244/