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Total Members Voted: 86

[doublestrafe]

Colors which you consider brightly contrasting are not so to everyone. I'm (partially) colorblind. Graphics packs allow me to differentiate units at a glance which I would otherwise find literally indistinguishable from each other without loo(k)ing every time.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Color_scheme#For_the_Chromatically_Challenged
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[Button]

Sal, at first I thought you were being unresonable and oversensitive in your accusation...after all I did state that I am not sure if this is a good idea and that I am looking for opinions. But I am beginning to see your point, some of the posts are passive-aggressive. And it is always too easy to get angry over the internet and overreact. So please, keep things civil.

That said, thanks everyone who posted so far- I never really understood why people used tilesets and there are some vauable insights here.

Woobmonkey, what you said I should do is basically what I had in mind. In the morning, I was thinking, hypothetically, how I would write a beginners guide to DF, and I came to the part where I would mention graphics. I imagined a reader who believes that he has to use a graphic pack and I thought about how I would convince him that he really doesn't need it and that he should give the ASCII a try. This is not how I put it in the first post, but ...sigh here comes passive-agressiveness: I usually tend to assume good things about people and I expect the same from them. So I usually (this post being different) don't bother to be as nice and as politically correct as possible.

Please try not to react to this post, it is a derailment.

Sorry for being a jerk up there. I was hungry, and didn't realize it was coloring my perception of the thread. Just had lunch and now ashamed of myself.

Colors which you consider brightly contrasting are not so to everyone. I'm (partially) colorblind. Graphics packs allow me to differentiate units at a glance which I would otherwise find literally indistinguishable from each other without loo(k)ing every time.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Color_scheme#For_the_Chromatically_Challenged
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Somehow I suspect that a screenshot of Phoebus would be easier for someone to understand than an apparently ASCII screenshot where the colors don't correspond to the same entities.

[Porpoisepower]

There are times to encourage people new to a community to stick to standards, and times not to. This especially true of environments where good habits are essential.

The thing with Dwarf Fortress, it's best when good DF habits aren't followed, as fortresses tend to get pretty templatish when you think things too much.  These can be highly effective forts, but they can get dull pretty quick.

As a matter of personal preference I find the newer versions of dwarf fortress just too busy with the original ASCII-like graphics.

[Quietust]

after hours of continuous gameplay, the letters would begin to do my head in, and I would literally end up with eye ache

By comparison, I get headaches when trying to play with graphics sets, just because I end up having to squint at the tiles in order to tell them apart (is that a Swordsgoblin or a Macegoblin?), while standard ASCII graphics are easier for me to distinguish.

My point is that most of this is probably totally subjective, so you'll never find a single right answer that works for everybody.

[Ghoul]

My point is that most of this is probably totally subjective, so you'll never find a single right answer that works for everybody.

Couldn't agree more, which is probably why there are quite so many different tileset's out there- everyone has their own idea of perfection I suppose. (Personally, Phoebus is what does it for me)

[Dirac]

Colors which you consider brightly contrasting are not so to everyone. I'm (partially) colorblind. Graphics packs allow me to differentiate units at a glance which I would otherwise find literally indistinguishable from each other without loo(k)ing every time.

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Color_scheme#For_the_Chromatically_Challenged
Next?

The point Button was making just zoomed right over your head, huh?

Anyway, in response to the thread: I use the default ASCII tileset simply because I can't stand the punctuation bug in using custom tilesets (i.e., ground tiles appear in place of punctuation marks in the logs), and True Type is worthless since most of the characters on the menus are missing all of the time.

That said, I can't fathom why you even care about this.  What, exactly, is it about other people playing DF differently than you that is sticking in your craw so much?  I liken this to a certain political issue (which I won't go into detail here to avoid a huge debate): If you don't like it, don't do it.  But don't try to control other people's lives, because they have a right to do what they want with their casual gaming experience.

[WoobMonkey]

ancistrus, if I may hazard a suggestion:

It's probably best to focus on the sheer ingenuity of DF, its players, and its community.  Whether that be stressed through the amazing simulation that ToadyOne has put together, the astounding expansions and mods cobbled up by folks like Meph and Deon, the torture of physics and logic that folks like Girlinhat and Larix have given us, or the graphics packs designed and created by various others, doesn't really matter.  The point of DF, I think needs to be stressed, is that it's akin to the most intricate Meccano set ever created - any time one finds oneself thinking 'I wish there were a way to. . .. ' it's likely that there is.

Even if you don't prefer graphics and tilesets, the very fact that DF can be (relatively) easily modified to allow them, should be an overall positive, don't you think? 

Otherwise, we may as well move on to telling F1 drivers that the only way to manipulate a gearbox is through a stick-shift; any ease-of-use they find with paddles is somehow inferior.  Or whatever analogy you may prefer.

I think we're all (at least I know that I am) willing to assume that you mean only the best; this, however, is probably not a fruitful way to go about easing newer players into the game.

[WanderingKid]

My point is that most of this is probably totally subjective, so you'll never find a single right answer that works for everybody.

I would agree with this as the primary thing to consider if you're hoping to write something for new players.  I'm definitely a proponent of using graphics packs as an alternative as I personally am the opposite of Q.  I can't stand the matrix look of the ASCII.  It bugs me, I find it counterintuitive, and it's more difficult at a glance for me than a graphics pack.  At first, yes, I had to (k) everything like everyone else, but once my brain put an image to a table, it was now a table.  The letter doesn't pick up as easily to me for quickly moving through a fort.

There are places where we need a standard, such as forum posts describing complex machinery for minecart adding machines, but even then I find myself needing a legend from the poster.  However, if you were going to discuss this issue, I would recommend a slightly different focus.  Instead of focusing on playing in ASCII, I would recommend focusing on how moddable the game is, and that there ARE different options.  Point out the cases, like Q, where ASCII is easier and more effective for their play style and encourage newbies to try it before going to the defaults they see on youtube.  There are multiple ASCII sets out there too (such as the square ASCII) to play with for more consistency as well.

To the letters disappearing in true type, that's easy to fix.  Just tap [ then ] to adjust your zoom and the truetype fixes itself for a little bit.  It fades again eventually but it's an incredibly fast and easy fix to it that you can repeat on any screen annoying you.

[wierd]

I also agree about the subjective nature of the issue.

Personally, I would like it if toady allowed higher res tiles, and allowed tiles for non creature assets (that way individual bush types could get unique tiles, et al.) That would rub the ascii purists in completely the wrong way, but would make me very happy.  What any individual player is used to seeing is what will determine the degree of unncanny valley syndrome they will have looking at somebody else's screenshots.

To me, the big thing to take away is to just not allow oneself to be bent out of shape because it isnt the way we (as viewers) like it to look. We arent the ones playing, after all.

[Graknorke]

I think that new players shouldn't be so readily encourages to immediately give up on the default tileset. It seems counterintuitive that you would want someone to not even get to experience what the game is like by default before suggesting that they use a less elegant alternative.

[WanderingKid]

I think that new players shouldn't be so readily encourages to immediately give up on the default tileset. It seems counterintuitive that you would want someone to not even get to experience what the game is like by default before suggesting that they use a less elegant alternative.

Yet, I also don't recommend people playing World of Tanks to play it in its lowest graphics mode first, either.  'Less Elegant' alternative is in the eye of the beholder.  I don't find ASCII elegant, I see it as a crutch for not including proper graphical coding YET.  The game isn't even in Alpha, so that's fair, but there is no default yet.  Paraphrased from Toady: "The UI and interfacing will be last, after I'm done coding the world.  I'll put the pretty wrapper on after." 

I just consider the graphical tile sets to be players jumping the gun for Toady so that we can see it in a better format already.

[wierd]

The deal is that Toady has repeatedly mentioned in FotF messages that he and his brother are not terribly good at art, and that they dont feel comfortable asking for the community to produce/support art assets officially. (People come and go, and if the artist stops being responsive to email or other contact about new game inclusions, etc-- it will lead to big problems with maintaining art style etc.)

This is why I dont really feel compelled to ask toady for a default graphics "pack", or for tileset graphics to be the default mode.

Instead, I just want the tileset loader to be worked on to support more variety of tiles and tile sizes. That is completely independent of what he sets as the default mechanism. If he ends up needing to create a default tile asset map to do that, I have no gripes at all about his populating it with images of bitstream vera sans mono rendered glyphs in various colors. (I can replace them with anything I want to make myself later.) To retain support for pure terminal mode, actual ncurses should be kept. I dont feel in any way compelled to ask toady to scrub that just to suit my personal tastes.

I do feel compelled to ask for the skeleton code to load and display more kinds of tiles. that's fundamentally different from demanding that graphics be default, or that a specific pack of graphics be default.

I just want the framework to hang it on.

[Graknorke]

Yet, I also don't recommend people playing World of Tanks to play it in its lowest graphics mode first, either.

Poor analogy, graphics settings are set for performance reasons rather than personal preference. Custom skins would be far more appropriate an analogy, since that's pretty much what we're talking about.

'Less Elegant' alternative is in the eye of the beholder.

It's to do with the amount of information you can convey and how quickly. It is very easy to read a letter or symbol without even thinking about it, not so much so to examine an image.

I just consider the graphical tile sets to be players jumping the gun for Toady so that we can see it in a better format already.

I really don't see how tilesets are a better format. It's the same format, the only difference being your tiles are different.

[Dirst]

The deal is that Toady has repeatedly mentioned in FotF messages that he and his brother are not terribly good at art, and that they dont feel comfortable asking for the community to produce/support art assets officially. (People come and go, and if the artist stops being responsive to email or other contact about new game inclusions, etc-- it will lead to big problems with maintaining art style etc.)

This is why I dont really feel compelled to ask toady for a default graphics "pack", or for tileset graphics to be the default mode.

Instead, I just want the tileset loader to be worked on to support more variety of tiles and tile sizes. That is completely independent of what he sets as the default mechanism. If he ends up needing to create a default tile asset map to do that, I have no gripes at all about his populating it with images of bitstream vera sans mono rendered glyphs in various colors. (I can replace them with anything I want to make myself later.) To retain support for pure terminal mode, actual ncurses should be kept. I dont feel in any way compelled to ask toady to scrub that just to suit my personal tastes.

I do feel compelled to ask for the skeleton code to load and display more kinds of tiles. that's fundamentally different from demanding that graphics be default, or that a specific pack of graphics be default.

I just want the framework to hang it on.

I agree that it would be nice to have more or less arbitrary identifiers in a graphics file, if for no other  reason than to allow distinct glyphs for items using the same character.

As for posting screenshots, I want someone to make a browser widget or a wiki plugin that takes ASCII text and applies a specified tile-, graphic- and color-set to it.  This will become available about ninety seconds before DF acquires a true GUI.

[WanderingKid]

Yet, I also don't recommend people playing World of Tanks to play it in its lowest graphics mode first, either.

Poor analogy, graphics settings are set for performance reasons rather than personal preference. Custom skins would be far more appropriate an analogy, since that's pretty much what we're talking about.

Okay, that's a fair change in analogy.  Yet still one I'd recommend.  Knowing where the armor weak points are for newbies is a lot more important than for veterans who already know.

'Less Elegant' alternative is in the eye of the beholder.

It's to do with the amount of information you can convey and how quickly. It is very easy to read a letter or symbol without even thinking about it, not so much so to examine an image.

And yet, I find myself having to examine the letters for colors and things, whereas a stick on the ground is either a bolt or a mace and a big barrel holds food or drink, whatever color it might be.  "A picture speaks a thousand words" in this case is true to me.  I find the graphics much more communicative than a random letter that may or may not have an umlaut, or which way the apostrophe goes on an O to determine if the lever is on or off.  I've got a big word on the screen: ON/OFF.  In different colors.

Even better will be when we can tell the difference between the kitchen and the brewery at a glance by site, not because we remembered the kitchen's on the left, but that will require some of the modifications that Weird is looking for (and I applaud) for multi-tile assignments of sprites.

I just consider the graphical tile sets to be players jumping the gun for Toady so that we can see it in a better format already.

I really don't see how tilesets are a better format. It's the same format, the only difference being your tiles are different.

I suppose it's really what you're used to.  My assumption on this is there are many older players who got very used to the ASCII tileset as the game progressed, and grew with it.  The players who immediately chased them learned from their screenshots and things, and also grew with it.  Then you get folks like me, who really only got into it at the very tail of 40d, which made no sense to me, and then 2012 came along and I sunk my teeth in for the ride.

I tried ASCII, I really did.  I tossed the game inside of 2 days.  Kept bugging me though.  I found LNP, I found Tilesets, suddenly I could SEE.  That's a dwarf.  That's a tree.  That's a bush.  That's a hole.  That's a ramp... I think... yeah it is.  Stairs, okay, easy.  Is that a floodgate or an up/down stairway?  Well, why would I put a floodgate under the stairs, must be an up/down.

There's still a lot of work that can be done with the graphics, but that transition period at first is hard enough.  Being able to see a stairway AS a stairway, it associates in your head with pre-described imagery.  Something with four legs, brown, and relatively large.  Pack animal (Bison).  vs: B.  In some color.

Yep, Graphics all the way for me, even if they aren't perfect.