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[scrdest]

But then the very purpose of that mentioned in passing relationship would be to be a Token Homosexual Relationship. Not to mention, HP series is actually set in the relative past, with the first book starting in 1991.

[palsch]

But then the very purpose of that mentioned in passing relationship would be to be a Token Homosexual Relationship. Not to mention, HP series is actually set in the relative past, with the first book starting in 1991.

... hearing 1991 as relative past makes me feel old. But beyond that I don't really know what you mean. Was homosexuality only invented last decade or something?

And going from my saying that not a single such relationship is so much as mentioned in passing goes to the only reason such a relationship could be mentioned is tokenism is a bit of a stretch. But at the same time what would be so awful about having one of the multitude of background romances and relationships be stated to be same-sex? Tokenism can have some value just by showing that people like you (hypothetical you here) exist in that world, and maybe showing that they exist and maybe are accepted in that world. It's not ideal, but better than absolutely nothing.

[scrdest]

But then the very purpose of that mentioned in passing relationship would be to be a Token Homosexual Relationship. Not to mention, HP series is actually set in the relative past, with the first book starting in 1991.

... hearing 1991 as relative past makes me feel old. But beyond that I don't really know what you mean. Was homosexuality only invented last decade or something?

And going from my saying that not a single such relationship is so much as mentioned in passing goes to the only reason such a relationship could be mentioned is tokenism is a bit of a stretch. But at the same time what would be so awful about having one of the multitude of background romances and relationships be stated to be same-sex? Tokenism can have some value just by showing that people like you (hypothetical you here) exist in that world, and maybe showing that they exist and maybe are accepted in that world. It's not ideal, but better than absolutely nothing.

No, it wasn't, but in 1991 it was still treated very differently than it would be nowadays.

Also, nobody said that they would be accepted. We're talking about a world where like 75% of people were born and raised in a very traditional, pre-industrial society, and where it didn't take much to get the rest of population to be persecuted for being born to wrong people.

[palsch]

Also, nobody said that they would be accepted. We're talking about a world where like 75% of people were born and raised in a very traditional, pre-industrial society, and where it didn't take much to get the rest of population to be persecuted for being born to wrong people.

We are talking about a world that JK created to criticise oppression and discrimination, with the idea of promoting acceptance of diversity and rejecting prejudice. A world that was grossly unrealistic, had all manner of characters who acted outside social norms being generally accepted and not a single openly gay character. See the blind point there?

[chaoticag]

I will agree that LGBT characters aren't very well characterised in games, but at the same time, it's also worth pointing out that while some LGBT characters in games do have an explicit reference to their orientation, sometimes leaving things up to interpretation is also good, at least at the moment. I've got three examples off the top of my head at the moment. Lara Croft from the recent Tomb Raider was written ambiguously, and so was the main character in Assassins Creed Liberation. Persona 4 kinda made things more ambiguous in the English translation compared to the original Japanese.

It might be best to take a look at instead at games where sexuality is more important in order to figure out how well represented LGTB characters are, so if there are romantic subplots, or parts of the story where characters are coming to terms with their identity, then that'd be a very relevant place to place and examine whether LGTB themes or character are present, and how it's represented.

I also understand that there's support for casting things like they did in Aliens, but at the same time, while a sexuality isn't part of a personality, it can be part of someone's identity, which can inform how they relate to others depending on situations, just as much as nationality and gender are facets of identity and should act as such. So yeah, that's my two cents.

[kaenneth]

Also, nobody said that they would be accepted. We're talking about a world where like 75% of people were born and raised in a very traditional, pre-industrial society, and where it didn't take much to get the rest of population to be persecuted for being born to wrong people.

We are talking about a world that JK created to criticise oppression and discrimination, with the idea of promoting acceptance of diversity and rejecting prejudice. A world that was grossly unrealistic, had all manner of characters who acted outside social norms being generally accepted and not a single openly gay character. See the blind point there?

Art by committee and focus group is terrible.

Remember in Robocop 2, when all the extra directives were being added, making him act insane? You put too many requirements on a project, and it falls apart.

[Loud Whispers]

1: Not universally vilified for being gay.
2: Not a villain or antagonist
3: Not reduced to having 'gay' be his only personality trait
4: Not insane/bipolar/schizophrenic

Oh joy, another test designed to create flawless minorities to show how progressive the author is.

1. Why is this included? Do you not see how a character who is universally villified for being gay automatically has a problem they can try to overcome? That's a really god damned interesting character arc written out for you. Do they even manage to overcome it? Do they cave into pressure?!
2. Why is this included? I do think there is a lot of confusion in that Americans are fond of making British people villains, but also think the British are very gay.
All in all, doesn't really matter one bit.
3. What this test does, since they're the 'LGBT rep.'
4. Cornflakes: Now 100% more gay.

[i2amroy]

-snip-

Upon rereading the test, I seem to have confused the "1-4" numberings with the actual test itself, which is rather close to the original Barnes Test.

I think you might be running into this same problem. The actual test is in the spoiler titled "The Test".

[Loud Whispers]

THERE WE GO
Is your character a protagonist?
Is your character treated with respect and dignity by at least one other, non-LGBT character?
Does your character ever have a conversation that does not relate to their LGBT status?
(Optional) Is your character of sound mind?
This would be a great test.

[kaenneth]

THERE WE GO
Is your character a protagonist?
Is your character treated with respect and dignity by at least one other, non-LGBT character?
Does your character ever have a conversation that does not relate to their LGBT status?
(Optional) Is your character of sound mind?
This would be a great test.

Yeah, as my boyfriend is schizo-affective, I don't see why being gay and insane should be mutually exclusive; unless they are just pig-piling their token character traits into one black-lefthanded-crazy-lesbian in a wheelchair. (Like Stephen King did with Odetta Susannah in the Dark Tower series...)

is there a Trope name for that?

[Loud Whispers]

* Loud Whispers reads the TvTropes on Odetta Susannah

...Yeah. Does King pull of a character like that well?

[i2amroy]

I think the point of the protagonist and sound mind questions are supposed to be as tie-ins with the respect and dignity question. Villains are, after all, supposed to be vilified and an completely insane character is not necessarily going to be treated normally.

This of course doesn't mean we shouldn't be treating mentally unsound people without those things in real life, but it acts more as a limiter on the type of characters that this test could validly be applied to.

About the closest trope I can find to that is the Twofer Token Minority.

[palsch]

I'd guess it's to avoid the association of homosexuality with mental illness along the lines of Irving Biebers work. Combine that with the history of censorship of gay fiction. You have the classic lesbian pulp novels that always had to have tragic endings to avoid "proselytizing homosexuality", often combining their downfall with stereotyped mental illness. A game or other modern work that plays into those tropes is unlikely to be good representation.

[Loud Whispers]

You can never judge a work by its tropes, the same way you wouldn't judge food by what ingredients it features.

If you judge it by tropes, Bioware is good at making homosexual characters.

I will let that sink in.

[Ogdibus]

You can never judge a work by its tropes, the same way you wouldn't judge food by what ingredients it features.

If you judge it by tropes, Bioware is tries to be good at making homosexual characters.

I will let that sink in.

I'm not saying that they always fail, but they do fail sometimes.