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[scrdest]

You could, however, tweak some things to be more compatible with the limitations of the spacesuits. Things like heat management, Various Bodily Functions Unpleasant To Experience In Confined Suit and the like.

[Sheb]

PTW.

[Lagslayer]

OK, I'm back. Let's see how the thread progressed overnight...

As for "Gattaca", the concerns raised by that film are perfectly valid, but they are less about transhumanism and more about the societal effects of distinct eugenic castes

I think an important part of this debate that sometimes gets ignored is the whole "Gattaca" aspect. A lot of the transhumanist fans I've argued with on the internet approach the whole thing as a potential utopia. It's refreshingly positive in a naive, faith-like way. I can't help but view it with cynicism.
Access to this cutting edge technology will obviously be restricted by wealth. It may just be so initially, if you believe the technology will eventually be so cheap as to be trivial. But I don't see how that is possible. People said the same thing about flight, that it would bring humanity closer together, that it would be accessible to all, that having fulfilled man's age-old desire to fly war and conflict would be a thing of the past. Given what I know about history, genetic manipulation is much more likely to create self-reinforcing division and "castes" of haves and have-nots. Except now when they will talk about their "natural" and "genetic" superiority, they will actually have a point. I don't know about you but that scares me. Not to mention the whole military application angle. Again the parrallels with flight: the leaps and bounds in the technology will almost assuredly come from government financing aimed at military superiority.

I'd been turning this over in my head, but neglected to bring it up yesterday. This is eugenics. It is a way to cull the "undesirable" traits of humanity. Proponents like to talk about how they will stop at genetic diseases, but I believe that's a load. People are going to want to use it to become stronger, faster, smarter, etc. Continued pressure to compete will all but force everyone else to undergo the same procedures just to compete. Failure to do so would mean inevitable failure at life, as you are either incapable or simple excluded from activities for being "sub-par". The pressure will force everyone toward the mathematical "perfect" DNA, or they will fail in life.

I don't put too much stock in the "ensuring diversity" part, either. Even today, genetic diversity in agriculture is shrinking, as they strive to produce more "perfect" crops. When you play a competitive online game, you may be pigeonholed into a specific "optimal" setup, or be kicked for being a stupid noob. Companies say they want diversity in employees, but what they really want is their cookie-cutter perfect candidates with no personality at all. Remember, people have tunnel vision.

Of course, all of this assumes they don't just forcibly change everyone's DNA outright because the "inferiors" are holding back society with their inferiority. Consuming resources that could have gone to the superior people and furthered society. And if we brainwash them as well, they won't even care that they've been mutilated against their will!

[Baffler]

This was my other concern. There's no way such things won't be used to make people sharper, faster, stronger, etc. and nobody here is saying that everyone will be able to afford to be optimized. Genetic discrimination was illegal in Gattaca.

[Knit tie]

Another way of looking at various body enhancements is complaring them to expensive status goods, such as cars and household appliances. Not everybody will have them, and those without them will be impaired in some way, but it won't change the fundamental dynamics of modern society. Think about it: aside from sports, law enforcement, emergency servcies and the military, being in excellent physical shape is unlikely to make you successful at what you do for a living. The majority of industrial sector jobs do not usually require any significant strength or endurance from the worker, associated as they are nowadays with heavy machinery and various other technological appliances, and as for the rest, well, an overweight kinda ugly middle aged dude is as valid an office worker, a waiter, a hairderesser or a bus driver as a young, fit and handsome man. We have long passed the point where our success was determined by our physical capabilities instead of our mental ones and in the fields where it still is (aforementioned military and such), the government is likely to subsidize transhumanist augmentation out of it's own pocket, leading to a guy with, e.g., mechanical legs either not really getting any serious advantage from them or having the government pay for them if he really is better off running faster.

Of course, this concerns only augmentations of physical characterisitcs - stenth, speed, etc. - and not things that give humans completely new abilities, such as mind/machine intefaces and specialised microsurgery limbs.

[Descan]

As happened in the industrial revolution, for example. PTW.

EDIT: As the definition of 'human' is blurry at best, let me propose an alternative question: Does it matter what's human and what's not?

dude that's what I asked

why does everyone ignore me

i love you guys plz don't haet

; - ;

[Gukag]

The word "eugenics" is frought with really dark undertones, for very good reasons. Like Lagslayer points out, transhumanism could be considered a more advanced form of eugenics. In the same way that genetic manipulation of plants is just a more advanced and directed way of breeding and splicing, something that cultivators have been doing since the dawn of agriculture (and herders as well with animals).
When speaking about the impact of futuristic technology on society you could do worse than examine the hypotheticals explored in sci-fi. It has quite a history of at least partly accurate predictions, if only because of self-fulfilling prophecy (i.e the tech was inspired by the fiction in the first place). Which is why I thought "Gattaca" was a particularly salient example for this theme.
Of course the whole "genetically modified elite caste" scenario could just as easily be turned on it's head, with the focus on "purity" and "true humanity" and fear/loathing of the neo-humans (aka X-men). 

[Sheb]

Knit Tie: that's only true for physical improvement. The Beijing Genomic Institute are currently looking into the genetic basis of human intelligence. We could be looking at the possibility of screening zygote for intelligence in a few years.

[Baffler]

I don't think (though I've been wrong before) anyone will begrudge anyone else the opportunity to remove their genetic predisposition to heart disease, or kidney failure, or whatever. Or at least the opportunity for a germ-line modification so their kids aren't affected. A very specific, very solid line will have to be drawn if this is going to happen at all, to avoid removal of other traits that not everyone feels isn't... optimal.

Knit Tie: that's only true for physical improvement. The Beijing Genomic Institute are currently looking into the genetic basis of human intelligence. We could be looking at the possibility of screening zygote for intelligence in a few years.

Pre-edit: ninja'd.

[Knit tie]

Knit Tie: that's only true for physical improvement. The Beijing Genomic Institute are currently looking into the genetic basis of human intelligence. We could be looking at the possibility of screening zygote for intelligence in a few years.

Yes, exactly as I said in my post.

Of course, this concerns only augmentations of physical characterisitcs - strenth, speed, etc. - and not things that give humans completely new abilities, such as mind/machine intefaces and specialised microsurgery limbs.

As for the intelligence screening, it has a very real potential of evolving into what "Gattaca" mentioned. All modifications that can seriously affect a human's place in society and are performed without said human's consent need to be approached with extreme caution.

[Gukag]

Tbf, he does give a disclaimer at the end of his arguement. nm, double ninja'ed
But Knit, you shouldn't underestimate how much physical beauty (as subjective as that is) plays a role in someone's personal and professional life. The usual study trotted out to make this point is that height actually correlates to salary. Of course correlation=/=causation, maybe tall people just have more self-confidence and thus are more ambitious in their professional goals. But it is undeniably an advantage, I'd even go so far as to say an evolutionary one.
And we're also far, far from full automation. Who knows if it won't just be cheaper to modify a worker for a physical task than to use machines? If the industrial revolution (ongoing in a lot of the world) has shown anything it's that human life is cheap.

[Knit tie]

Tbf, he does give a disclaimer at the end of his arguement. nm, double ninja'ed
But Knit, you shouldn't underestimate how much physical beauty (as subjective as that is) plays a role in someone's personal and professional life. The usual study trotted out to make this point is that height actually correlates to salary. Of course correlation=/=causation, maybe tall people just have more self-confidence and thus are more ambitious in their professional goals. But it is undeniably an advantage, I'd even go so far as to say an evolutionary one.
And we're also far, far from full automation. Who knows if it won't just be cheaper to modify a worker for a physical task than to use machines? If the industrial revolution (ongoing in a lot of the world) has shown anything it's that human life is cheap.

That question I can answer right now - it won't, at least for a few centuries, if only because a worker with, say, hydraulic limbs suddenly becomes difficult to replace and thus able to dictate his rights, while a bunch of normal guys operating a crane can be fired and replaced at a moment's notice if they ever get uppity.

And if by modifying workers you mean "breed a slave race", I don't think that international community will allow that.

[Gukag]

A lot of the world already works in slave-like conditions, and has for centuries. The international community "allows" it, because it can't really do anything about it. In a lot of cases it even directly benefits from it. If workers in China had the same rights they have in, say, the Great Lakes area (old industrial/manufacturing center of the US), how expensive do you think the goods manufactured there would become, compared to now? That was mostly what my "ongoing industrial revolution" comment was aimed at.
Then there's the expectation that the whole of the world will embrace egalitarian values. Some places in the world still have caste systems. The huge discrepancy between rich and poor in Russia was also brought up as an example. The same arguement could also be made about "western" countries (to a much lesser extent, granted). Genetic modification would fit seamlessly into these systems as yet another tool to self-reinforce the divisions.

[lemon10]

Tbf, he does give a disclaimer at the end of his arguement. nm, double ninja'ed
But Knit, you shouldn't underestimate how much physical beauty (as subjective as that is) plays a role in someone's personal and professional life. The usual study trotted out to make this point is that height actually correlates to salary. Of course correlation=/=causation, maybe tall people just have more self-confidence and thus are more ambitious in their professional goals. But it is undeniably an advantage, I'd even go so far as to say an evolutionary one.
And we're also far, far from full automation. Who knows if it won't just be cheaper to modify a worker for a physical task than to use machines? If the industrial revolution (ongoing in a lot of the world) has shown anything it's that human life is cheap.

Because you have to pay a human worker no matter how heavily modified he is. You don't have to pay machines, and machine labor is just going to get cheaper and more efficient. Human labor might get slightly cheaper, and slightly more efficient, but won't improve nearly as much as machine labor will.

Also: Outside of a specific few (eg. immortality, hyper immune system, zero-gravity adaption) I don't think physical changes will really have much impact at all. The real power will be in the mental changes, since while having a slightly worse body is acceptable in the workplace, being stupider then a whole segment of the population will put you at a huge disadvantage (especially in the areas where there are actually going to be good jobs).

[Gukag]

Granted, I was mostly playing devil's advocate on the physical modification thing. I think we can all agree that any potential intelligence/mental modifications will have much more of an impact on society.