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Author Topic: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.  (Read 5263 times)

CaptainMcClellan

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2014, 02:30:37 am »

First off, absolutely not to the one glyph for all smoothed walls. Part of the experience is smoothed walls having connectivity. And even if the glyph set was reduced, I'm not sure it would be enough. However, that should definitely be looked into as a possibility. Still, I should like to see a glyph set extended sufficiently to cover at least 1/8 of the different symbols and colours, if it is possible.

On a side note, the thought of an interactive 3-d Dwarf Fortress board greatly excites me, and I want to make one or have one made even though I am not blind. All your ideas have been extremely helpful so far, but I think if we put our heads together, we can do even better.

Also, what method is this going to use for detecting the tactile input of the user's hand? Pressure? Proximity Detecting laser grid? ( Not as impractical as it sounds, actually. The one thing is it needs to be able to tell the difference between a "click" and "scrolling over"... well actually, maybe not, if the input is still primarily handled via keyboard, as I think would be most feasible.) So, basically, what we've got so far is a pin-board that displays a variety of glyphs and detects where the user's [dominant] hand is while displaying basic information ( name, species, gender ) on a braille print-out that can be read with the other hand. That's all good and fine for static images, but one thing about DF is that you have things move a lot. Have we figured out how to track individual dwarves without sight yet? It might be important to detect more than one also. I was thinking about "sonar pings" where the distance of dwarves from your finger is represented with a ping sound that grows more faint the farther they are away. However, I don't see this as being particularly practical as the game would have to have time to "scan" and output the relativistic distance and there's still no accounting for direction. ( This is per Z-level, by the way, Z-levels being toggled by two arrow buttons marked "U" and "D" on the side of the screen in my mental design. ) One possible way to track dwarves, is to have a mandatory 50-75 dwarf population cap and have a seperate braille sector with a list of names, and different glyphs to the left of the name to represent the job and a button that acts as the "follow" command to the right. And perhaps when ones finger hovers over said list, another proximity laser grid pauses the game and brings up the information screen, displaying for the last detected dwarf ( say your finger was at the third dwarf, call him Urist, the game will pause and pull up Urist's information screen on the main panel in braille ) and then the player has to remove their hand from the list and then press ESC on their braille keyboard to resume game. I mean... it's by no means ideal, but it seems to be the most practical way that's been thought up so far for handling it.

Another issue, how does one tell the difference between a designated task and a completed whatever. I'm thinking, now this just thinking mind you, that we could use GavJ and Dorf and Dumb's idea of two different types of pins, one metal and one rubber to distinguish. Rubber pins would notate a designation, metal pins a completed product. Hmm, these are just a few ideas I've thought up, but I'm still... there are still issues. I'm gonna draw what the machine looks like in my head so that my explanation will be easier to understand.

EDIT: Major announcements like: "Migrants have arrived", "A Forgotten beast has arrived", "A Siege is upon us", and "the traders are here" will, as they do in our version, pause the game. They will also annouce themselves with a ping, and be printed out on the braille "quick info" panel. Possibly to be extended to include other announcements that the game doesn't already pause for. I'm thinking it'll also be announced with a voice following the beep and that certain announcements that the game doesn't pause for will be done by voice alone. For example, the marking of the seasons will be done by voice output from a speaker. "Spring has arrived." And thus won't be announced in the quick-info slot, as it is in the version we play. Deaths should probably also be handled as such, though I worry that during sieges the triggering of like seven death messages will overload the speakers so that they all run together into one unintelligible mush. And the Forgotten Beast announcements especially will be read out as there's no way to practically display the information for them. Also, I think that whatever resolution the pinboard operates at, it should have braille designations on the side to mark the grid. "A1", "B7", like most games with a grid. And of course, the resolution will be set. No zooming in or out, which while potentially crippling, is by far the least issue to a DF player. Still a resolution of at least 30x32 (glyphs) is not too much to ask for, I shouldn't think.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 02:41:48 am by CaptainMcClellan »
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GavJ

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2014, 01:45:18 pm »

You're making most of those problems too complicated. You can solve a lot of thing by just doing the exact same analogue of what the actual game does:

Important announcement: drops all pins to the floor and have the message raise in braille in the middle until acknowledged. Like normal game, basically.

Find nearest creature (like the V key normally): The nearest one that it is selecting at the moment just has its glyph flash (i.e. drop to zero, then reraise, drop to zero, re-raise) which makes it very easy to locate if, while reading the info off to the side, you see it's the one you want. Same goes for buildings, etc. Also, the actual sound of the pins "flashing" adds a second sensory cue to the location, without even havign to build anything special into the system at all. Merely a happy side effect.

Tracking a creature: Already a vanilla game feature that translates just fine: use hotkeys follow creature option. Now you just hit the hotkey and ta da, the display centers right on them (lots of ways to make center tile special and easily found which should probably be in place anyway. Simmilar to the little nub on the "5" key on most cellphones. Cheapest would be to just have the center glyph use pins made out of a unique material, as long as materials aren't overly used elsewhere).

If you want, give an option to either recenter or just make the relevant dwarf flash (you'd want the former in most cases, the latter in cases like directing a whole squad of military)



Quote
Also, what method is this going to use for detecting the tactile input of the user's hand? Pressure? Proximity Detecting laser grid?
Yes pressure. Pressure sensors are robust, unambiguous, and cheap. You don't even need to have a sensor/button for every glyph if you combine it with another dirt cheap mechanism like capacitance to see where your fingers are, and use staggered sensors and stuff.

But probably a pressure button for each individual glyph even would pale in cost to the pin mechanisms anyway, so whatever. Just a switch for each one.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2014, 01:49:05 pm by GavJ »
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Thorik

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2014, 07:24:11 pm »

The best solution if a blind person wants to play dwarf fortress, is to just direct another person who will actually do the stuff in the game for them and describe what is happening.
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GavJ

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2014, 07:42:56 pm »

The best solution if a blind person wants to play dwarf fortress, is to just direct another person who will actually do the stuff in the game for them and describe what is happening.

"Use brains instead of crazy complex machines"
?!
And you call yourself a dwarf...



In seriousness: this appears to be what blind people are actually doing currently, based on earlier comments and links.
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Cauliflower Labs – Geologically realistic world generator devblog

Dwarf fortress in 50 words: You start with seven alcoholic, manic-depressive dwarves. You build a fortress in the wilderness where EVERYTHING tries to kill you, including your own dwarves. Usually, your chief imports are immigrants, beer, and optimism. Your chief exports are misery, limestone violins, forest fires, elf tallow soap, and carved kitten bone.

CaptainMcClellan

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2014, 08:53:18 pm »

The best solution if a blind person wants to play dwarf fortress, is to just direct another person who will actually do the stuff in the game for them and describe what is happening.

"Use brains instead of crazy complex machines"
?!
And you call yourself a dwarf...



In seriousness: this appears to be what blind people are actually doing currently, based on earlier comments and links.
Yeah, and for the foreseeable future that's what they'll have to continue to do. I would still like to make a console for them to play DF on by themselves.

Dorf and Dumb

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2014, 12:23:14 pm »

Another feature would be voice recognition: it seems to have gone mainstream by this point, so it's possible to avoid sending one hand to a keyboard - I assume this is how the one hand on the pinboard and the other on the braille display is arranged.
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CaptainMcClellan

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2014, 05:41:04 pm »

Another feature would be voice recognition: it seems to have gone mainstream by this point, so it's possible to avoid sending one hand to a keyboard - I assume this is how the one hand on the pinboard and the other on the braille display is arranged.
Yeah. But then that provides the hassle of programming voice controls, which is far beyond the level of practicality for the sake of Dwarf Fortress. That said, if you have the know-how or know someone who does, by all means yes. We're nothing if not people who sacrifice practicality for awesome on a daily basis.

hops

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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2014, 07:04:29 am »

I once knew a very well-know MUD player by the name of Tanris in Achaea. It was said that he was blind, but he is one of the most dangerous pvp players.

How does he play MUDs competitively without getting overwhelmed by details you ask? He simplifies the text.

Basically I believe that instead of having a complex set of characters, it would work better if there are only few "groups" of symbols for certain things, like how Nethack differentiate monsters in the same class. Then a closer loo'k' would be needed. Now, this would result in it taking more time for the blind player to decipher the symbols and is quite the opposite of what Tanris does, but my point is sometimes you don't really need all the details when you can just generalize them.
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Re: Dwarf Fortress for the Blind.
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2014, 07:07:43 am »

I once knew a very well-know MUD player by the name of Tanris in Achaea. It was said that he was blind, but he is one of the most dangerous pvp players.

How does he play MUDs competitively without getting overwhelmed by details you ask? He simplifies the text.

Basically I believe that instead of having a complex set of characters, it would work better if there are only few "groups" of symbols for certain things, like how Nethack differentiate monsters in the same class. Then a closer loo'k' would be needed. Now, this would result in it taking more time for the blind player to decipher the symbols and is quite the opposite of what Tanris does, but my point is sometimes you don't really need all the details when you can just generalize them.

Exactly. We can get that for adventure mode and have it ready to go if we can just talk to some modders.
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