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Author Topic: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread  (Read 84794 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #540 on: September 04, 2020, 06:13:24 am »

What?
He's aping the rhetoric Russia used when invading Ukraine, you know the whole "we're not invading but if we were invading it was because we were defending from fascists by defending into their country which we're not in"

feelotraveller

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #541 on: September 05, 2020, 12:07:36 am »

What?

In terms of the far there's the orange baby, guess I don't need to fill you in on that score, but just in case I point you to the the Ameripol and Abusive Policing threads.

With the near, i.e. India, I guess you haven't been following the developments - here's probably the quickest way to summarise it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zdxODINAoE

The renewed tensions along the line of actual control kicked off in June last year in response to India building a series of roads along the border.  China responded by increasing its military forces in the region. Things have gone downhill since.  (Mind you China have not been exactly shy in the road building stakes, but their approach has been more nuanced and gradual as opposed to India's sudden push.)
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3088973/high-roads-border-conflict-through-india-and-china

In terms of fascism this responds to the need to have a paradoxically exceedingly power/trivially weak external enemy to complement the internal vilification.  (On the latter see the troubling rise of militant Hindu nationalism and the comcomittant changes to citizenship in India over the past few years.)

I can't even guess what LW has been drinking but it's certainly not the standard kool aid.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #542 on: September 05, 2020, 09:31:00 am »

I can't even guess what LW has been drinking but it's certainly not the standard kool aid.
I wasn't sure if you were being serious about fascist India vs communist China or if this was a Hoi4 thread in disguise

*EDIT
The renewed tensions along the line of actual control kicked off in June last year in response to India building a series of roads along the border.  China responded by increasing its military forces in the region. Things have gone downhill since.  (Mind you China have not been exactly shy in the road building stakes, but their approach has been more nuanced and gradual as opposed to India's sudden push.)
And that's just objectively wrong, China has been the one continuously pushing, not just in Kashmir but near the Siliguri corridor and the South China Seas. China moves piecemeal so as to not provoke a military reaction, and if a military reaction occurs they can claim they're defending even when they just annexed someone else's territory. Same shit as the Russian salami slicing tactic
« Last Edit: September 05, 2020, 09:32:45 am by Loud Whispers »
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feelotraveller

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #543 on: September 05, 2020, 11:05:14 am »

I'm sorry (for you) but India has no claim, or frontage, on any of the South China Sea.  Please spare us your vitriolic xenophobia over China.  In fact the whole South China Sea thing has a bunch of countries with rather fantastic (read quite spurious) claims, China amongst them.  Don't hear you complaining about Taiwan's claims now do we, even though they are of the exact same extension.  But of course this is all off topic to the India-China border clash thing - hence my all too quick assumption about why you bring it up.

Back to where India and China do have a shared, and contested, border in Kashmir/Ladakh/the Karakorum mountains. 

Basic background up till a couple of months ago:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-17/what-is-behind-the-india-china-border-dispute-lac/12363348

A summary taking into account more recent events, but not including the last incident (quotes follow):
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ap-explains-indias-kashmir-move-foretold-china-standoff-72485794

Quick summary:
Quote
Experts say India’s actions in Kashmir a year ago exacerbated existing tensions with China, culminating in the deadliest clash between the Asian giants in more than four decades.

Part of the rise of Indian fascism has been the vilification and oppression of religious minorities, specifically Muslims, and to a lesser degree Buddhists:
Quote
In August 2019, New Delhi stripped India-administered Kashmir of its statehood, demoting it to a federal territory, and clamped down on dissent. The region’s decades-old semi-autonomy, which protected jobs and land from outsiders, was also scrapped. New Delhi also carved out Ladakh as a separate federal territory.

Basically they went full jackboot military occupation, right on China's border, and guess what - China got upset.  Since this June India has turned this up to eleven:
Quote
Since the mid-June army clashes between China and India, residents of Ladakh’s towns, which are dotted with Buddhist temples and cafes for mountaineering tourists, have watched uneasily as Indian troops brought in fighter jets, artillery and construction materials. The activity has marked one of the most massive military buildups in decades.

Quote
In Kashmir’s main city of Srinagar, demonstrators on June 21 jeered at Indian soldiers by shouting “China is coming!”

“We hope powerful China’s involvement helps us to end India’s occupation of Kashmir,” said dried fruit merchant Nazir Ahmed.

(Please note these are Australian and American sources and one would expect that were any bias to exist it would be anti-China.)
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Loud Whispers

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #544 on: September 05, 2020, 03:54:17 pm »

I'm sorry (for you) but India has no claim, or frontage, on any of the South China Sea.  Please spare us your vitriolic xenophobia over China.
You misunderstand, I'm not saying India and China are fighting in the SCS, I'm saying China is using the same tactics they employ in the SCS

In fact the whole South China Sea thing has a bunch of countries with rather fantastic (read quite spurious) claims, China amongst them.  Don't hear you complaining about Taiwan's claims now do we, even though they are of the exact same extension.  But of course this is all off topic to the India-China border clash thing - hence my all too quick assumption about why you bring it up.
Taiwan did not destroy a bunch of coral reefs to install ROC airbases against international Law, against UN rulings, against basic human decency, to go fuck with my SE Asian madlads like Philippines, Malaysia and Vietnam. Meanwhile PRC did. And PRC has absolutely no claim at all to waters that belong to other countries, it's ludicrous to argue China is just one fantasist amongst many - they are the only unicorn in a field of horses

Back to where India and China do have a shared, and contested, border in Kashmir/Ladakh/the Karakorum mountains. 

Basic background up till a couple of months ago:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-17/what-is-behind-the-india-china-border-dispute-lac/12363348
Why stop at months? Why ignore the years of continual Chinese annexation of Indian ground? Cos it's inconvenient when they fight back clearly

Part of the rise of Indian fascism has been the vilification and oppression of religious minorities, specifically Muslims, and to a lesser degree Buddhists
Yeah the CCP with their actual genocide of Muslims in actual concentration camps are doing this for the anti-fascist crusade against the world's largest democracy
Lmao

feelotraveller

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #545 on: September 06, 2020, 06:06:32 pm »

SCS - some pretty fantastic claims there, check out the extension of Vietnam's claim nearly all the way to Malayasia, and Malaysia's most of the way to Hong Kong. 

Had to laugh at this one.  (All too common in the world of international politics/diplomacy.)
Quote
against international Law, against UN rulings, against basic human decency
We're talking about the maritime 'redrawing' of boundaries Australia engaged in to steal Timor-Leste's (aka East Timor) oil and gas, right?  Yeah that was abominable, full on cloak and dagger as well including the bugging of Timor-Leste's embassy in the lead-up to 'negotiations'.   ;)


Basic background up till a couple of months ago:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-06-17/what-is-behind-the-india-china-border-dispute-lac/12363348
Why stop at months? Why ignore the years of continual Chinese annexation of Indian ground? Cos it's inconvenient when they fight back clearly

Part of the rise of Indian fascism has been the vilification and oppression of religious minorities, specifically Muslims, and to a lesser degree Buddhists
Yeah the CCP with their actual genocide of Muslims in actual concentration camps are doing this for the anti-fascist crusade against the world's largest democracy
Lmao

No you've got the wrong end of the stick (and didn't bother to read the source).  The 'couple of months' was in reference to the article being written in June so not covering events occuring since.  The article descibes how the problem goes back to 1947 with the British doing their usual terrible job of willy-nilly drawing lines on the map in ignorance of all existing cultural, religious and ethnic conventions. Oh and and then they go the fuck home.
Quote
While no border has ever officially been negotiated along the Himalayan stretch that divides the two nations, the truce established a 3,380 kilometre-long, loosely demarcated line referred to as the Line of Actual Control (LAC).
It also mentions the the border war of 1959-62.  The reason for the occasion of the article (also specified) were the first fatalities in the dispute since 1969.  So that is why the events of a few months ago are significant (at least for me and the article).

The article you link in response is a nice piece of rhetoric, but where's the facts?  It doesn't mention a single example of its fancy 'salami slicing' so it's impossible to verify (or refute).  Linkng it rather than anything which makes an objective claim is very misleading.  Or to put it another way the hot-air blowing by Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman has about as much credence as a CIA show and tell at the UN about mobile Iraqi chemical weapons manufactories, and very likely similar aims.

Yep, authoritarian China does some very nasty shit to the Uyghurs, and are pretty fucked in Hong Kong too but that doesn't excuse India's border push. 

It's also somewhat of a red herring since India has its own series of detention centres, many under construction, to deal with the stateless persons aka those declared illegal immigrants under the machinations of the Citizenship Amendment Act/National Register of Citizens:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/01/human-india-largest-detention-centre-ready-200102044649934.html
Quote
Ali's brother-in-law failed to make it to the National Register of Citizens (NRC), a list published in Assam this year which declared 1.9 million people as "illegal" migrants, who now face either detention in a camp like the one coming up at Goalpara, or deportation.
https://www.iol.co.za/news/opinion/the-ugly-rise-of-fascism-in-india-44235061
Quote
It is widely recognised that the National Register will be used to discriminate against Muslims in particular, and will leave them vulnerable in their own country and targets of persecution.

Needless to say China whatever its other shortcomings has not experienced the quickly increasing spate of mob violence that has run rampant in India over the last few years often with the implicit, or even explicit, help of the police and judiciary. 
https://intpolicydigest.org/2020/01/23/india-on-the-slippery-slope-to-fascism/
Quote
Symptomatic of this divide is the issue of mob-lynchings, an increasingly common phenomenon in India which generally occurs in the form of informal public executions to punish an alleged transgressor. Mob lynchings have often been associated with cow vigilantes who seek to protect and prevent the slaughter of cows seen as sacred under Hindu law, and more often than not, target members of the Muslim minority. Human Rights Watch has attributed this increase in mob vigilantism to the widespread use of communal rhetoric by the BJP.

Yeah, India is still a democracy, but you know that little man in Germany close to a century ago was elected as the ruler of a democratic country and 'democratically' given tyrannical powers; led to a wee bit of conflict a few years later.  Or again just because Trump was elected "democratically" (yeah what the fuck in practice does that actually mean) it does not mean that he is not a fascist.

The logic of China's the face of pure evil (Saddam's a nasty dictator) so anything done against them is justified is just as broken now as it was then.

Edit: typos
« Last Edit: September 06, 2020, 06:13:05 pm by feelotraveller »
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Il Palazzo

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #546 on: September 06, 2020, 07:12:20 pm »

Why must you fight? You can despise both China and India at the same time, you know.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #547 on: September 06, 2020, 07:29:43 pm »

China will grow larger
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feelotraveller

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #548 on: September 06, 2020, 07:35:28 pm »

Why must you fight? You can despise both China and India at the same time, you know.

Don't forget the Americans, the British and the Australians, they deserve to be despised too.  :D
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Il Palazzo

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #549 on: September 06, 2020, 07:44:31 pm »

There's room in my heart for all of you.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #550 on: September 15, 2020, 03:40:52 am »

Yoshihide Suga was voted as Abe's replacement, by the way. He's one of the clones of Abe, as opposed to the guy who said Hitler was right or the guy who said we should just nuke China and get it over with.

Suga has shown his immense boldness and vision by promising deregulation and self-help as Japan's economy makes that really concerning sound where you don't know if there's just a panel loose or something right before one of the wings falls off, also there's covid everywhere.
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RedKing

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #551 on: September 15, 2020, 03:52:26 pm »

Yoshihide Suga was voted as Abe's replacement, by the way. He's one of the clones of Abe, as opposed to the guy who said Hitler was right or the guy who said we should just nuke China and get it over with.

Suga has shown his immense boldness and vision by promising deregulation and self-help as Japan's economy makes that really concerning sound where you don't know if there's just a panel loose or something right before one of the wings falls off, also there's covid everywhere.
It's ok, Japan is just getting ready to transform its economy into Super Gunbuster Armored VOTOMS Mode.
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #552 on: September 15, 2020, 04:31:46 pm »

Are we at war with Eastasia yet?
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Enemy post

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #553 on: September 15, 2020, 05:14:19 pm »

Are we at war with Eastasia yet?

No, we’ve always been at war with Eurasia.
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Reelya

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Re: RedKing's East Asian Politics Megathread
« Reply #554 on: November 24, 2020, 02:01:05 pm »

https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/deleted-tweet-reveals-chinese-village-built-on-disputed-territory-in-bhutan/news-story/e3153e7b2cafec9e8fb1528399b88bec

To summarize, they built a model village in Tibet, Chinese state-backed social media influencers were promoting it, but they gave too many details and when people check satelite maps they discovered that the village is actually in Bhutan and is part of a secret move by China to shove "loyal" Tibetan villagers over the border to populate a neighboring country, along with obfuscating the fact that it's near a military base. So they've got a wall of happy-looking villagers now so if you try and expel the Chinese military from your territory they can scream about human rights.

It sums up China in that the only time they treat Tibetans nicely, even on paper, is when they need them as a human wall to cover up a land grab.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 02:07:52 pm by Reelya »
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